posted December 14, 2003 04:52 PM            

I'm also curious on opalescence and humility.....

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posted December 14, 2003 05:05 PM            

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posted December 14, 2003 09:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by axn:
all 11 activations are on the stack without anyone of them resolving
after you activate an ability, you still have priority
only when you pass priority and your opponent passes priority does any one of them resolve
if the top effect is the discarding of the the dreadnought, it resolves first so the VS will not die

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The player with priority may either play a spell or ability, take a special action, or pass. If he or she plays a spell or ability, or takes a special action, the player again receives priority; otherwise, his or her opponent receives priority.

according to the above rule, once you use the ability YOU get priority again

Each time a player would get priority, all applicable state-based effects resolve first as a single event

according to the above rule SBE will be checked every time you use the ability so after the third use,,well the shapeshifter dies. When it resolves matters not, the use of the ability causes you to get priority again and SBEs checked

Here is how I see it happening

posted December 14, 2003 11:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Wagamer:
The player with priority may either play a spell or ability, take a special action, or pass. If he or she plays a spell or ability, or takes a special action, the player again receives priority; otherwise, his or her opponent receives priority.

according to the above rule, once you use the ability YOU get priority again

Each time a player would get priority, all applicable state-based effects resolve first as a single event

according to the above rule SBE will be checked every time you use the ability so after the third use,,well the shapeshifter dies. When it resolves matters not, the use of the ability causes you to get priority again and SBEs checked

Here is how I see it happening

you use the ability shapeshifter gets +1/-1, you get priority and SBE are checked nothing happens all ok
you use the ability again, shapeshifter now has +2/-2, you get priority again and SBE are checked nothing happens all ok
you use the ability again, shapeshifter now has +3/-3, you get priority again and SBE are checked and the shapeshifter dies.

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You're a little confused here, The Shapeshifter will NOT get +1/-1 unless the ability resolves.

You don't really "use" the Shapeshifters ability, more of activate it. You pay the cost, which is 0, and the +1/-1 ability goes on the stack. SBE are checked, and any triggered abilities that have triggered get placed on the stack, then the player who had priority recieves priority again.

So at this point the +1/-1 ability is still on the stack, Shapeshifter is still a 3/3 and you have priority. Do it again 10 times, in a row each time you go through all the above steps and the Shapesifter is still a 3/3, you still have priority, and there are 11 +1/-1 abilities on the stack.

Now you pay 2 mana and activate the Shapeshifters discard ability, it is placed on the stack, SBE are check, and any triggers trigger, then you receive priority, now you pass priority, if your opponent passes in succession the top item on the stack resolves, which is the discard ability, you discard a Dreadnaught and the Shapeshifter becomes a 12/12.

Now SBE and triggers are checked again and the active player recieves Priority and there are still +1/-1 abilities on the stack waiting to resolve. When both players pass in succession they will resolve one at a time from top of the stack to the bottom of the stack, with both players having to pass priority and the game checking SBE and triggers each time.

End result will be a 23/1 Shapeshifter.

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posted December 15, 2003 05:22 AM            

The July 1, 2003 version of the _Magic_(R) Comprehensive Rules includes an error in the section about continuous effects. The rule for applying layers of continuous effects (rule 418.5a) caused control-changing effects to interact incorrectly with type-changing effects. The corrected version of this rule is as follows:

418.5a The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, "Copying Objects"), (2) control-changing effects, (3) text-changing effects, (4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects, (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power or toughness, and (6) power- or toughness-changing effects.
Inside each layer, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then effects from all other abilities. For power- or toughness-changing effects, apply changes from counters after changes from characteristic-setting abilities. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b-418.5g).

* If a single ability creates multiple different effects and those effects could be applied in more than one layer (such as an ability that creates effects that set permanent type, color, and power/toughness), apply each of the effects in the appropriate layer.

* The revised rule means that nearly all continuous effects work as players expect them to.

posted December 15, 2003 09:45 AM            

quote:

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When Mangara's Tome is destroyed, or otherwise leaves your immediate control, are the cards removed by its ability permanently removed from the game?

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Yes. They may only be retrieved thru the use of something like Living Wish, Cunning Wish, etc.

quote:

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Or can you recast Mangara's Tome and retreive them once again?

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You may play Mangara's Tome again but it will not be able to retrieve cards from previous Tomes because they were not removed by "~this~".

quote:

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Additionally, if someone steals it, can they draw from the pile of cards I removed?

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posted December 15, 2003 04:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by grimmer:
Yes. They may only be retrieved thru the use of something like Living Wish, Cunning Wish, etc.

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Actually Since they are removed form the game FACE DOWN, you may only use Death Wish or Ring of Ma^ruf to get one of the cards, and you will not get to look at the cards before you choose one.

Even if you removed 5 Instants, you still cannot Cunning Wish for one, as the game cannot see a face down card as an instant.

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posted December 16, 2003 11:25 AM            

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posted December 17, 2003 12:34 PM            

People are remembering a time (long ago now, but nobody ever pays attention when the rulebook is updated) when it was illegal to concede a game. The rule existed to prevent collusion, but it ultimately proved too difficult to enforce because judges then also had to prevent people from playing badly to throw a match. Intentional mana burn was the most obvious way to do that, and so was outlawed across the board (you could call a judge over and explain why you wanted to play a Dark Ritual and only spend two mana and it might be allowed, or you could damage yourself if there was a Mirror Universe in play, but you did have to call the judge).

All that's ancient history now. It's legal to concede and it's legal to mana burn yourself.

posted December 17, 2003 08:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rockondon:
my opponent has a face-down exalted angel in play. He pays 2ww to flip it over and in response I sack my pernicious deed for zero. Does the angel die?

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posted December 18, 2003 01:34 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MTGFool:
I was playing in a tournament yesterday and I have pandemonium out, and I attempt to play phyrexian dreadnaought and i do not have creatures to sack for a power of 12, does phyrexian dreadnought come into play and then you must sack creatures or does it never resolve to play to have pandemonium deal 12 damage?

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Phyrexian Dreadnaught has been errated. You have to Sacrifice the creatures before the Dreadnaught can come into play. If you don't the Dreadnaught goes straight to the graveyard and never comes into play and Pandemonium won't deal damage.

Now if you had been playing in a tournament 4 1/2 years ago it would've worked

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