posted September 06, 2004 08:58 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by da-odd-templar:
One player chooses a number of cycles to go through, the other player either agrees or chooses a higher number. Once they agree on a number the cycles happen that many times.

I would like some confirmation on this as I'm a but rusty on handling these things.

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The active player chooses a number, then the nonactive player can agree to that number or choose a lower number.

Here's the relevant paragraph from the Comprehensive Rules:

posted September 06, 2004 09:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by orcishartillery:
That's not quite right.

The active player chooses a number, then the nonactive player can agree to that number or choose a lower number.

Here's the relevant paragraph from the Comprehensive Rules:

421.3. If the loop contains at least one optional action controlled by each player and actions by both players are required to continue the loop, the active player chooses a number. The nonactive player then has two choices. He or she can choose a lower number, in which case the loop continues that number of times plus whatever fraction is necessary for the active player to "have the last word." Or he or she can agree to the number the active player chose, in which case the loop continues that number of times plus whatever fraction is necessary for the nonactive player to "have the last word." (Note that either fraction may be zero.)
Example: One player controls a creature with the ability "{o0}: [This creature] gains flying." Another player controls a permanent with the ability "{o0}: Target creature loses flying." The "infinity rule" ensures that regardless of which player initiated the gain/lose flying ability, the nonactive player will always have the final choice and therefore be able to determine whether the creature has flying. (Note that this assumes that the first player attempted to give the creature flying at least once.)

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Kinda... read closer, "actions by both players are required to continue the loop."

If both players have Nest/Earthcraft, they both have seperate infinite combos. The combos don't rely on eachother to work.

So if both players have the combo, then they will usually have the same number of creatures.

Unless one of them wants to have fewer creatures for whatever reason.

Mainly, one player won't win from Nest/Craft without another card to help.

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posted September 07, 2004 01:08 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Iabtu:
If both players have Nest/Earthcraft, they both have seperate infinite combos. The combos don't rely on eachother to work.

So if both players have the combo, then they will usually have the same number of creatures.

Unless one of them wants to have fewer creatures for whatever reason.

Mainly, one player won't win from Nest/Craft without another card to help.

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Both of you guys are wrong. The non-active player can always have a higher number of creatures than the active player. The real relevant paragraph in the rules is 421.5:

quote:

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Originally posted by the Comprehensive Rules:
421.5. If the loop contains at least one optional action controlled by each player and these actions don't depend on one another, the active player chooses a number. The nonactive player can either agree to that number or choose a higher number. Note that this rule applies even if the actions could exist in separate loops rather than in a single loop.

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posted September 07, 2004 01:43 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by da-odd-templar:

Dragon Fangs
Color: Green
Type: Enchant Creature
Cost: 1G
Sets: SC(C)
Text(SC): Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and has trample. ; When a creature with converted mana cost {6} or more comes into play, you may return ~this~ from your graveyard to play enchanting that creature.

* Note - Also see Converted Mana Cost, Rule G3.25.
* Note - Also see Trample, Rule 502.9.

No, it does not target when it comes back into play. Why? Because it doesn't say it targets.

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Heh, I know it doesn't say it targets, but enchant permanents never say they target yet they do, that's why I wasn't sure.

posted September 07, 2004 01:46 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Tahngarth666:
Heh, I know it doesn't say it targets, but enchant permanents never say they target yet they do, that's why I wasn't sure.

Anyway thanks for the help. I didn't happen btw, I never got my Zephid. ty

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Enchant Pernaments only target when you cast them.

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posted September 07, 2004 07:18 AM         

quote:

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Originally posted by GMontag:
Both of you guys are wrong. The non-active player can always have a higher number of creatures than the active player. The real relevant paragraph in the rules is 421.5: (snip)

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posted September 07, 2004 11:11 AM            

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posted September 07, 2004 11:32 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by voodooglowskull:
chains of mephitopheles... would i be correct in understanding that as soon as this is played the opponent basically loses the game. because theyd have to dicard their hand down to zero as so as you make them draw an extra card, then after that since they cant discard theyd have to keep putting the top card of their library into the graveyard...right?

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No. Here is the current Oracle text for CoM:

"If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in a draw step, that player discards a card from his or her hand instead. If the player discards a card, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard."

Note that this doesn't apply to the first card they draw during their draw step. Basically apart from that first draw, they must discard a card before drawing another. If they have no cards to discard, then the top card of their library is put into the graveyard. CoM does not force them to discard their whole hand when it comes into play or skip their draw phase or anything like that.

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posted September 07, 2004 11:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by GMontag:
Both of you guys are wrong. The non-active player can always have a higher number of creatures than the active player. The real relevant paragraph in the rules is 421.5:

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quote:

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Originally posted by the Comprehensive Rules:
421.5. If the loop contains at least one optional action controlled by each player and these actions don't depend on one another, the active player chooses a number. The nonactive player can either agree to that number or choose a higher number. Note that this rule applies even if the actions could exist in separate loops rather than in a single loop.

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__________________
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posted September 07, 2004 11:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Iabtu:
Kinda... read closer, "actions by both players are required to continue the loop."

If both players have Nest/Earthcraft, they both have seperate infinite combos. The combos don't rely on eachother to work.

So if both players have the combo, then they will usually have the same number of creatures.

Unless one of them wants to have fewer creatures for whatever reason.

Mainly, one player won't win from Nest/Craft without another card to help.

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I've been thinking long and hard about this and I think however has the most untapped creatures will have infinitely more creatures than the other if he plays it right, no matter whose turn it is.

Player A has 0 creatures and Nest/Craft, Player B has 1 creature and Nest/Craft.

Player B's turn, he taps his Nest, Player A responds be tapping his Nest, Player B responds by using Craft and his 1 creature to untap Nest. Stack looks like so:

B's untapping of land w/ Nest
A's Nest making a squirrel
B's Nest making a squirrel

Players let the land untap and Player B then taps the land for a squirrel, Since Player A has no more creatures or a way to untap his land he can't stop Player B from making 1,000 squirrels, leaving his Land with Nest tapped and 1 squirrel untapped.

Then Player A's Nest finally resolves and makes a squirrel, he then uses Craft to untap his land and taps it again to us Nest. Player B responds by using his Craft to untap his Land w/ Nest. Stack looks like:

B's untapping of land w/ Nest
A's Nest making a squirrel
B's Nest making a squirrel

Players let the land untap and Player B then taps the land for a squirrel, Since Player A has no more creatures or a way to untap his land he can't stop Player B from making 1,000 squirrels, leaving his Land with Nest tapped and 1 squirrel untapped.

Then Player A finally gets his squirrel.

So the loop is giving Player B 1,000 squirrels to everyone Player A gets.

So I really think the correct answer with Nest/Craft is however has more untapped creatures or ways to respond to the other persons combo will end up with more creatures.

If both players had 0 untapped creatures and no way to respond, then whoever waits to tap his Nest in response to the other player will be on the good side of the loop.

I'll be asking the higher ups about this a little later today.

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posted September 07, 2004 05:13 PM            

I was asked today if morphed down creatures have a color. I was basically quoted this line. Am I right in saying that it has a casting cost of 0 and that makes it colorless, the same way lands are?

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posted September 07, 2004 05:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by harbingerofthevoid:
502.26b - To play a card using its morph ability, turn it face down. It becomes a 2/2 face-down creature card, with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and a mana cost of {0}. These values are the copiable values of that object's characteristics.

I was asked today if morphed down creatures have a color. I was basically quoted this line. Am I right in saying that it has a casting cost of 0 and that makes it colorless, the same way lands are?

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yep, morphs are colorless.

__________________
"In an ominous note for American players there were no Americans in the Top 8 at the end of the day. The highest finish by an American player was eleventh place by the relatively unknown Michael Stranc." - Sideboard Online, PT Kobe Day One Wrap-up

posted September 07, 2004 05:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Iabtu:
yep, morphs are colorless.

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Unless there is a card that changes that such as Darkest Hour etc,

Ben

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sliver_king

posted September 07, 2004 08:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BenBuhlar:
Unless there is a card that changes that such as Darkest Hour etc,

Ben

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That wasn't necessary. You can't assume there is another thing in play that changes the nature of the beast.

posted September 08, 2004 12:04 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BenBuhlar:
Unless there is a card that changes that such as Darkest Hour etc,

Ben

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Your Mom

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posted September 08, 2004 08:07 AM            

- When my opponent cycles a Gempalm Incinerator, can I Misdirest it to one of his creatures?
- Can I Misdirect his Lightning Bolt to his Troll Ascetic?
- In response to activating a Disk, I Chain of Vapor it to my hand, so I can recast it. When exactly do I have to decide whether to sac a land or not?
- Can I Stifle a Tangle Wire when it comes into play (so it doesn't get fading counters?)
- Can I stifle the tapping ability of a Tangle Wire during my upkeep?

posted September 08, 2004 08:42 AM         

quote:

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Originally posted by mulder:
A few questions:

- When my opponent cycles a Gempalm Incinerator, can I Misdirest it to one of his creatures?

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quote:

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- Can I Misdirect his Lightning Bolt to his Troll Ascetic?

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quote:

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- In response to activating a Disk, I Chain of Vapor it to my hand, so I can recast it. When exactly do I have to decide whether to sac a land or not?

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quote:

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- Can I Stifle a Tangle Wire when it comes into play (so it doesn't get fading counters?)

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quote:

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- Can I stifle the tapping ability of a Tangle Wire during my upkeep?

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posted September 08, 2004 09:55 PM            

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posted September 09, 2004 09:29 AM            

I have a "Endless Whispers" in play. I also have a "Lifeline" in play. What happens if my creature dies on my turn? What happens if my creature dies on my opponents turn? What happens if my opponents creature dies on his turn? And finaly What happens to my opponents creature if his creature dies on my turn?

posted September 09, 2004 10:23 AM         

quote:

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Originally posted by whocares:
someone please answer this one for us. wizards has given us two different answers.

I have a "Endless Whispers" in play. I also have a "Lifeline" in play. What happens if my creature dies on my turn? What happens if my creature dies on my opponents turn? What happens if my opponents creature dies on his turn? And finaly What happens to my opponents creature if his creature dies on my turn?

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Your creature dies on your turn: You control both triggered abilities, so you choose the order they go on the stack at end of turn.

Your creature dies on your opponent's turn: You control both triggered abilities, so you choose the order they go on the stack at end of turn.

Your opponent's creature dies on his turn: At end of turn, your opponent's delayed Endless Whispers trigger goes on the stack, then your delayed Lifeline trigger. The creature will come back under its owner's control.

posted September 09, 2004 02:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Seidler15:
My opponent has 5 creatures on the table 2 Discple of the Vault, 2 Arcbound worker, and a myr enforcer. I'm at 8 life. I death cloud for 5. He claims that i die due to teh fact that the disciples ability triggers even though they are sent to the graveyard. Is he right?

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Yep, whenever multiple pernaments are moving zones (like from play to the graveyard) triggered abilities on those pernaments check to see if they would trigger right before they move. Each of his Disciples will trigger for each artifact.

__________________
"In an ominous note for American players there were no Americans in the Top 8 at the end of the day. The highest finish by an American player was eleventh place by the relatively unknown Michael Stranc." - Sideboard Online, PT Kobe Day One Wrap-up