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Author Topic:   Rulings Thread Part 46 (ALL rules-related questions go HERE!)
Mr.C
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posted October 14, 2010 12:11 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Mr.C Click Here to Email Mr.C Send a private message to Mr.C Click to send Mr.C an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Mr.C's Have/Want ListView Mr.C's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by TinCup2:
ok so there was an arguement at the SoM prerelease that "guy 1" has contagion clasp out "guy 2" has vedalken certarch with metalcraft ability working, guy 1 taps contagion clasp to proliferate adn guy2 tell him in response ill tap it with vedalken..... so not sure here but would this not stack up and the vedalken tap the clasp before the proliferate activates??

The tapping is part of the cost. So, no.

 
TimeBeing
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posted October 14, 2010 12:11 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for TimeBeing Click Here to Email TimeBeing Send a private message to TimeBeing Click to send TimeBeing an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TinCup2:
ok so there was an arguement at the SoM prerelease that "guy 1" has contagion clasp out "guy 2" has vedalken certarch with metalcraft ability working, guy 1 taps contagion clasp to proliferate adn guy2 tell him in response ill tap it with vedalken..... so not sure here but would this not stack up and the vedalken tap the clasp before the proliferate activates??

No. everything before the Colon : is a cost. Those are paid (and happen) as you activate the ability and can't be responded too.



[Edited 2 times, lastly by TimeBeing on October 14, 2010]

 
orcishartillery
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posted October 14, 2010 02:20 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for orcishartillery Send a private message to orcishartillery Click to send orcishartillery an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DeMoNiC DuNcE:
If I put a livewire lash on my blight mamba and regenerate it, does that signify it as a target from an ability and trigger the lash?

Aside from the fact that Blight Mamba's regenerate ability does not target, Livewire Lash does not trigger for abilities in the first place!

Livewire Lash:
Equipped creature gets +2/+0 and has "Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell, this creature deals 2 damage to target creature or player."

 
Eatatjoes
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posted October 14, 2010 03:44 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Eatatjoes Click Here to Email Eatatjoes Send a private message to Eatatjoes Click to send Eatatjoes an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Eatatjoes's Have/Want ListView Eatatjoes's Have/Want List
Can i voalition reigns or mind control an emrakul?
 
yakusoku
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posted October 14, 2010 04:06 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for yakusoku Click Here to Email yakusoku Send a private message to yakusoku Click to send yakusoku an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eatatjoes:
Can i voalition reigns or mind control an emrakul?

Normally, no. When you cast an aura spell, it targets and you cannot target Emrakul with a spell. If you have a Mind Control in your graveyard and cast Replenish, you can return Mind Control to the battlefield, enchanting Emrakul, since it is not a spell and Emrakul doesn't have protection from enchantments.

Contrast this with Journey to Nowhere, which does not target, since it is not an aura spell, and the ability only triggers once it is on the battlefield and no longer a spell, but a permanent, so you can exile Emrakul with Journey to Nowhere.

 
JackSpade
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posted October 14, 2010 04:13 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for JackSpade Click Here to Email JackSpade Send a private message to JackSpade Click to send JackSpade an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
This came up in a discussion yesterday and I was wondering if you guys could help me out with some definitive answers. If someone plays Ad Nauseam (instant) and then they play an Angel's grace (instant with split second): Is there a chance to counter the Ad Nauseam?

This brought up a broader conversation on the stack and priority. Which brings me to the following questions:

If i play one spell and if i want to play another spell (instant or ability) i have to play it right away or does priority get passed first to the other players? What if i want to play more than one other spell?

Once the stack begins to resolve, there is no chance to put anything else on the stack correct? It was my understanding that the whole stack has to resolve before anything else can be played. What about with morph cards? Can a morph be used in between two spells resolving?

Or if someone could just direct me to a good explanation of the stack that would be great too. Thanks in advance.

 
yakusoku
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posted October 14, 2010 04:35 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for yakusoku Click Here to Email yakusoku Send a private message to yakusoku Click to send yakusoku an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JackSpade:
This came up in a discussion yesterday and I was wondering if you guys could help me out with some definitive answers. If someone plays Ad Nauseam (instant) and then they play an Angel's grace (instant with split second): Is there a chance to counter the Ad Nauseam?

Yes. Objects on the stack resolve one at a time and after each item resolves, both players receive a chance to play spells and abilities. While Angel's Grace is on the stack, no one can counter Ad Nauseum, but a player can wait for Angel's Grace to resolve, which includes removing it from the stack and then counter Ad Nauseum.

quote:


If i play one spell and if i want to play another spell (instant or ability) i have to play it right away or does priority get passed first to the other players? What if i want to play more than one other spell?


After playing a spell or ability, you get priority again. If you pass priority and all other players pass priority, the topmost object on the stack will resolve. If you want to play more than one spell, you must retain priority and play more than one. You can simply verbalize this, "I play Spell1. While Spell1 is still on the stack, I also play Spell2."

quote:


Once the stack begins to resolve, there is no chance to put anything else on the stack correct?


That is incorrect. Since the stack was created that hasn't been the case. (It's a different story for batches, which existed pre-Sixth Edition). After each item on the stack resolves, all players get a chance to play another spell or ability.

What you can't do is do something like this:

Player1: "I play Fireball. Do you wish to counter?"
Player2: "No."
Player1: "Okay, then I want to play Fork, targetting Fireball."

Player1 has passed priority to Player2, who has also passed priority, so the Fireball resolves and Player1 loses his chance to play something else while Fireball is on the stack.

quote:


It was my understanding that the whole stack has to resolve before anything else can be played.


That is incorrect. However, there are certain spells such as artifacts, enchantments, planeswalkers, and creatures that normally can only be played during their controller's main phase while the stack is empty. In those cases, the player must let all spells and abilities on the stack resolve before playing one of these spells, or before playing a land.

quote:


What about with morph cards? Can a morph be used in between two spells resolving?


You can turn a permanent with Morph face up any time you have priority, including between two spells resolving.

Or if someone could just direct me to a good explanation of the stack that would be great too. Thanks in advance.



[Edited 1 times, lastly by yakusoku on October 14, 2010]

 
TimeBeing
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posted October 14, 2010 04:39 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for TimeBeing Click Here to Email TimeBeing Send a private message to TimeBeing Click to send TimeBeing an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JackSpade:
This came up in a discussion yesterday and I was wondering if you guys could help me out with some definitive answers. If someone plays Ad Nauseam (instant) and then they play an Angel's grace (instant with split second): Is there a chance to counter the Ad Nauseam?

This brought up a broader conversation on the stack and priority. Which brings me to the following questions:

If i play one spell and if i want to play another spell (instant or ability) i have to play it right away or does priority get passed first to the other players? What if i want to play more than one other spell?

Once the stack begins to resolve, there is no chance to put anything else on the stack correct? It was my understanding that the whole stack has to resolve before anything else can be played. What about with morph cards? Can a morph be used in between two spells resolving?

Or if someone could just direct me to a good explanation of the stack that would be great too. Thanks in advance.


Once a spell is placed on the stack both players get priority starting with the player who cast the spell. Spells don't resolve until all players pass priority then the top spell or ability on the stack resolve.

If you cast a spell, if you want to cast another one before the first one resolves you have to cast it before your opponents gets a chance respond. If you don't and the pass, then the spell will resolve (important when it comes to forking a spell. If you don't fork it right away, they can pass it will resolve and you've lost your chance.)

After a spell resolves all players get another round of priority, and the next spell will not resolve till all players pass. So in the case of Ad Nauseam, you can counter it before they cast angels grace, but you can can after angels grace resolves but before Ad Nauseam does.

EDIT: to know not to past rules stuff late at night from my ipad when i'm not thinking

[Edited 1 times, lastly by TimeBeing on October 18, 2010]

 
sagabegin
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posted October 14, 2010 08:50 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for sagabegin Click Here to Email sagabegin Send a private message to sagabegin Click to send sagabegin an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View sagabegin's Have/Want ListView sagabegin's Have/Want List
Does tapping an artifact still "turn it off" i.e. eldrazi monument?

Thanks,
sagabegin

 
Meddling Pimp
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posted October 14, 2010 08:52 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Meddling Pimp Click Here to Email Meddling Pimp Send a private message to Meddling Pimp Click to send Meddling Pimp an Instant MessageVisit Meddling Pimp's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sagabegin:
Does tapping an artifact still "turn it off" i.e. eldrazi monument?

Thanks,
sagabegin


No

 
WestWycke
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posted October 14, 2010 09:26 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WestWycke Click Here to Email WestWycke Send a private message to WestWycke Click to send WestWycke an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TimeBeing:
Once a spell is placed on the stack both players get priority starting with the active player.


This is not correct. Once a spell or ability is placed on the stack, priority is returned to the player who put the spell/ability on the stack.
quote:
Originally posted by TimeBeing:
If you cast a spell and its your turn, if you want to cast another one before the first one resolves you have to cast it before your opponents gets a chance respond.

Again, incorrect.
If you cast a spell and you want to cast another one before the first one resolves you have to cast it before you pass priority to your opponent(s).
It doesn't matter whose turn it is.

The difference is:

After adding an item to the stack, priority always goes to the player who put the item on the stack.

After resolving the top item on the stack, priority always goes to the active player.

 
AlmostGrown
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posted October 16, 2010 05:34 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for AlmostGrown Click Here to Email AlmostGrown Send a private message to AlmostGrown Click to send AlmostGrown an Instant MessageVisit AlmostGrown's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AlmostGrown's Have/Want ListView AlmostGrown's Have/Want List
For Dread Return, if I sacrifice Sphinx of Lost Truths as part of it's flashback cost, can I target the same Sphinx to bring back with Dread Return?
 
orcishartillery
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posted October 17, 2010 06:09 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for orcishartillery Send a private message to orcishartillery Click to send orcishartillery an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by AlmostGrown:
For Dread Return, if I sacrifice Sphinx of Lost Truths as part of it's flashback cost, can I target the same Sphinx to bring back with Dread Return?

No. You choose targets before you pay costs.
 
JoshSherman
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posted October 17, 2010 11:14 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for JoshSherman Click Here to Email JoshSherman Send a private message to JoshSherman Click to send JoshSherman an Instant MessageVisit JoshSherman's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View JoshSherman's Trade Auction or SaleView JoshSherman's Trade Auction or Sale
@JackSpade

quote:
Originally posted by yakusoku:
After playing a spell or ability, you get priority again. If you pass priority and all other players pass priority, the topmost object on the stack will resolve. If you want to play more than one spell, you must retain priority and play more than one. You can simply verbalize this, "I play Spell1. While Spell1 is still on the stack, I also play Spell2."

I want to expound on this note a bit, specifically the italicized part. Section 4.2 of the Magic Tournament Rules deals with tournament Shortcuts. The purpose of these is to "allow players to play in a clear fashion without getting bogged down in the minutia of the rules." Basic stuff like "I'm done" are considered shortcuts.

One such shortcut is this: "Whenever a player adds an object to the stack, he or she is assumed to be passing priority unless he or she explicitly announces that that he or she intends to retain it."

I played a deck based around Sanity Grinding at a regional tournament a couple years ago. Sometimes it was imperative to retain priority while I was casting my spells (like when Twincasting Sanity Grinding-- otherwise my opponent would just let it resolve and I couldn't copy it.) Knowing this rule actually almost helped me pull out a match against a deck that was supposed to beat mine. He played Earthquake or something similar, and I let it resolve. My opponent then attempted to sacrifice his Mogg Fanatics to deal two damage to me, which would put me at 4 for the Flame Javellin he was certainly holding to finish me off. The problem was, he forgot to retain priority, so those fanatics died when the spell resolved. I had to call a judge over because he'd been out of Magic for a while and did not know of this rule change (I believe it changed with Lorwyn, but I could be wrong). The first judge got the call wrong, so I appealed, and the head judge made the right call. I lost anyway, but I would have been dead immediately had I not caught that.

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[Edited 1 times, lastly by JoshSherman on October 17, 2010]

 
saintjust21
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posted October 18, 2010 01:19 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for saintjust21 Click Here to Email saintjust21 Send a private message to saintjust21 Click to send saintjust21 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
i know this is an obvious question, and thus silly, but i just need an answer because for some reason my opponent won't believe me.

the questions obviously go hand in hand.

1. what can you play during your upkeep? what spells can you play during your upkeep?

2. can you play a sorcery during your upkeep?

3. when can you play a sorcery?

my opponent seems to think he can play a sorcery during his upkeep because it is a spell.

 
yakusoku
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posted October 18, 2010 01:33 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for yakusoku Click Here to Email yakusoku Send a private message to yakusoku Click to send yakusoku an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
The Comprehensive Rules tend not to work in the way that you are asking. It's not so much "During your upkeep, you can only play X, Y, and Z", but rather, "These are the times when you can play X, Y, and Z."

You can normally only play lands and cast sorceries, planeswalkers, enchantments, artifacts, and creatures only during your main phase, when the stack is empty. Creatures with Flash and Suspended spells are notable exceptions, allowing you to play them at other times.

Most of the time, you can only play a sorcery during your own main phase and only if there are no other spells on the stack. You can't play a sorcery during your upkeep, unless something specifically allows you to do so.

You can play instants any time you have priority, including during either players upkeep, draw step, combat, or end of turn - times when you aren't usually aren't allowed to play other spells.

You should ask your opponent what the difference between sorceries and instants is. If you could play sorceries at any time, they would be the same as instants, except in name.

 
coinmagic45
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posted October 19, 2010 05:24 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for coinmagic45 Click Here to Email coinmagic45 Send a private message to coinmagic45 Click to send coinmagic45 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View coinmagic45's Trade Auction or SaleView coinmagic45's Trade Auction or Sale
How does Necrotic Ooze work with creatures with "Level Up"? For example, if you have a Enclave Chronologist in your graveyard (Level 1-2: tap to draw and discard; level 3+: tap to draw a card) in your graveyard, does Necrotic Ooze have any abilities? If so, which one(s)?

Thanks!
Mark

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Meddling Pimp
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posted October 19, 2010 05:40 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Meddling Pimp Click Here to Email Meddling Pimp Send a private message to Meddling Pimp Click to send Meddling Pimp an Instant MessageVisit Meddling Pimp's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by coinmagic45:
How does Necrotic Ooze work with creatures with "Level Up"? For example, if you have a Enclave Chronologist in your graveyard (Level 1-2: tap to draw and discard; level 3+: tap to draw a card) in your graveyard, does Necrotic Ooze have any abilities? If so, which one(s)?

Thanks!
Mark


Necrotic Ooze will have the activated ability to Level Up and add counters, but it won't matter. The levels (and all abilities granted by them) are static abilities that the ooze does not gain.

 
caquaa
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posted October 19, 2010 06:12 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by saintjust21:

2. can you play a sorcery during your upkeep?

3. when can you play a sorcery?



307. Sorceries

307.1. A player who has priority may cast a sorcery card from his or her hand during a main phase of his or her turn when the stack is empty. Casting a sorcery as a spell uses the stack. (See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”)

 
coinmagic45
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posted October 19, 2010 08:18 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for coinmagic45 Click Here to Email coinmagic45 Send a private message to coinmagic45 Click to send coinmagic45 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View coinmagic45's Trade Auction or SaleView coinmagic45's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Meddling Pimp:
Necrotic Ooze will have the activated ability to Level Up and add counters, but it won't matter. The levels (and all abilities granted by them) are static abilities that the ooze does not gain.

But it says "All activated abilities of all creature cards". Do conditional activated abilities not count? For example, if a creature said "tap to do something only if you have more life than an opponent", would Ooze have that ability if you did or did not meet the condition?

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thror
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posted October 19, 2010 08:25 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View thror's Trade Auction or SaleView thror's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by coinmagic45:
But it says "All activated abilities of all creature cards". Do conditional activated abilities not count? For example, if a creature said "tap to do something only if you have more life than an opponent", would Ooze have that ability if you did or did not meet the condition?


The wording is where this gets you. Level up creatures have the activated ability 'Pay (x) mana: Level up'. They then have conditions that grant them additional abilities based on levelup counters. Ooze does not get these condition checks, so it can't gain abilities. Lets use Brimstone Mage as an example.
Brimstone Mage {2R}
|Creature -- Human Shaman| 2/2.
Level up 3R
{LEVEL 1-2} 2/3. T: Brimstone Mage deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
{LEVEL 3+} 2/4. T: Brimstone Mage deals 3 damage to target creature or player.

Brimstone mage does not have any abilities beyond leveling unless he is first leveled up. He cannot have level counters in the graveyard. Therefor, the only ability the ooze can gain is the ability to level. Read {Level 1-2} like this: "If this has 1 or 2 level counters, this gains T: deal 1 and becomes 2/3".

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mattw
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posted October 19, 2010 08:33 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for mattw Click Here to Email mattw Send a private message to mattw Click to send mattw an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View mattw's Have/Want ListView mattw's Have/Want List
If i have wound reflection out and use Sorin Markov's second ability:

Target player's life total becomes 10

And that ability causes a life change of more than 10 (say my opponent had 30 life) would the wound reflection kill him/her?

 
Mr.C
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posted October 19, 2010 10:37 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Mr.C Click Here to Email Mr.C Send a private message to Mr.C Click to send Mr.C an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Mr.C's Have/Want ListView Mr.C's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by mattw:
If i have wound reflection out and use Sorin Markov's second ability:

Target player's life total becomes 10

And that ability causes a life change of more than 10 (say my opponent had 30 life) would the wound reflection kill him/her?


Yep.

 
orcishartillery
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posted October 20, 2010 01:43 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for orcishartillery Send a private message to orcishartillery Click to send orcishartillery an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thror:
The wording is where this gets you. Level up creatures have the activated ability 'Pay (x) mana: Level up'. They then have conditions that grant them additional abilities based on levelup counters. Ooze does not get these condition checks, so it can't gain abilities.

To be precise, Brimstone Mage has two static abilities:

As long as Brimstone Mage has at least 1 level counter on it, but no more than 2 level counters on it, it's 2/3 and has "Tap: Brimstone Mage deals 1 damage to target creature or player."

As long as Brimstone Mage has 3 or more level counters on it, it's 2/4 and has "Tap: Brimstone Mage deals 3 damage to target creature or player."

 
caquaa
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posted October 20, 2010 03:45 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
the ooze vs level up question has been answered in much detail previously. Search is your friend.
 

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