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Author Topic:   Rulings Thread Part 46 (ALL rules-related questions go HERE!)
nderdog
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posted July 09, 2010 08:04 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
Welcome to Rulings Thread Part 45.

Post all your rules/tournament questions here and they will get answered. Please wait a bit before you think we ignored you, we all live lives outside of MOTL but we do answer when we see them.

If you are going to answer a question, please be 100% sure that your answer is correct. If you are just guessing or *think* you know the answer, keep it to yourself. There are plenty of judges and people who will know it correctly, and if multiple answers are given, it just confuses the person who asked.

This thread is a flame-free zone. If you can't be civil, don't respond. New players shouldn't be worried about being made fun of when they're trying to learn.

Some information for ya...

Comprehensive Rules (also available in Word, Rich Text, and PDF formats)
The complete rules for the game of Magic. Beginners should not go here; they are very intimidating.
Oracle Card Reference
The official text for every card in existence (use Gatherer for any quick questions about Oracle texts, Gatherer uses the Oracle text of all cards).
Official Tournament Rules
The official rules for sanctioned tournaments.
Basic Rulebook
Simplified rules for beginning players. If you are new to the game, you should read this and not the Comprehensive Rules.
Set FAQs
The official FAQs for each set. Look here if you have a specific question about a card.
Judge Certification Program
How to become a judge.
MTG-L mailing list archives
A good place to get official answers to rules questions, or to search for previous answers.
DCIJUDGE-L mailing list archives
The official Judge list. A good place to search for previous answers and discussion involving judging decisions, philosophy, etc. NOT rules questions. That's what MTG-L is for.

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Volcanon
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posted July 10, 2010 11:16 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Can Lin Sivvi pull a faceless inversion onto a target creature?
 
thror
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posted July 10, 2010 11:17 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View thror's Trade Auction or SaleView thror's Trade Auction or Sale
I assume you mean 'Nameless inversion'. No. With cards like this, check the oracle text.

She now reads: "Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero {1WW} |Legendary Creature -- Human Rebel| 1/3. X, T: Search your library for a Rebel permanent card with converted mana cost X or less and put that card onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library. / 3: Put target Rebel card from your graveyard on the bottom of your library."

 
mtg_collector
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posted July 13, 2010 02:46 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for mtg_collector Click Here to Email mtg_collector Send a private message to mtg_collector Click to send mtg_collector an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Just wanted to know on the portal Natural Order
it says:

put green creature into play "treat it as though you just played it from your hand"

but on the other versions it doesn't say this and I couldn't find anything on the ruling of it.

but does it still imply this?

thanks in advance

 
nderdog
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posted July 13, 2010 02:52 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by mtg_collector:
Just wanted to know on the portal Natural Order
it says:

put green creature into play "treat it as though you just played it from your hand"

but on the other versions it doesn't say this and I couldn't find anything on the ruling of it.

but does it still imply this?

thanks in advance


Current Oracle wording:
As an additional cost to cast Natural Order, sacrifice a green creature.
Search your library for a green creature card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.


It will NOT behave as if cast normally. Things that care about a card entering the battlefield will count this, but things that care about the card being cast (such as Emrakul, the Aeons Torn's ability to take an extra turn if he was somehow made green) would not trigger.

__________________
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All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

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mtg_collector
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posted July 13, 2010 04:15 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for mtg_collector Click Here to Email mtg_collector Send a private message to mtg_collector Click to send mtg_collector an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
ok thanks. but I just want to be clear on this, so your not playing the creature from your hand but just putting it into play.

also about Crucible of Worlds, you can use it to do wasteland and strip mine ability right?

thanks again

 
junichi
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posted July 13, 2010 04:19 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for junichi Click Here to Email junichi Send a private message to junichi Click to send junichi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View junichi's Have/Want ListView junichi's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by mtg_collector:
ok thanks. but I just want to be clear on this, so your not playing the creature from your hand but just putting it into play.

also about Crucible of Worlds, you can use it to do wasteland and strip mine ability right?

thanks again



correct and correct.

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"lol you'll see when these go for 50 bucks a piece in a couple months, you're just jealous. !" - Marciano 315 03/17/2010

WestWycke
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posted July 13, 2010 07:58 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WestWycke Click Here to Email WestWycke Send a private message to WestWycke Click to send WestWycke an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mtg_collector:
ok thanks. but I just want to be clear on this, so your not playing the creature from your hand but just putting it into play.
also about Crucible of Worlds, you can use it to do wasteland and strip mine ability right?

Correct about Natural Order. Incorrect about Crucible of Worlds.

Crucible of Worlds does not give you permission to activate the abilities of Strip Mine or Wasteland while they are in the graveyard. It will simply let you play a land that is in your graveyard as a land drop.


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[Edited 1 times, lastly by WestWycke on July 13, 2010]

 
Christof
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posted July 14, 2010 02:36 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Christof Click Here to Email Christof Send a private message to Christof Click to send Christof an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
What happens to Gideon Jura when you activate his last ablity with Humility in play?
 
JoshSherman
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posted July 14, 2010 04:02 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for JoshSherman Click Here to Email JoshSherman Send a private message to JoshSherman Click to send JoshSherman an Instant MessageVisit JoshSherman's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View JoshSherman's Trade Auction or SaleView JoshSherman's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Christof:
What happens to Gideon Jura when you activate his last ablity with Humility in play?

I'm not sure about his p/t (I think it depends in timestamps), but I can tell you that all damage to him will still be prevented. He will lose his planeswalker abilities after being activated, becoming a vanilla */* (stars because I'm not sure), but the effect that says "prevent all damage that would be fealt to {this}" isn't actually on the card-- in that respect it's like you played Safe Passage-- and therefore can't be taken away by Humility.

By contrast, because it is printed on the card, Cho-Manno, Revolutionary would lose its damage prevention ability.

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junichi
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posted July 14, 2010 09:11 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for junichi Click Here to Email junichi Send a private message to junichi Click to send junichi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View junichi's Have/Want ListView junichi's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by WestWycke:
Correct about Natural Order. Incorrect about Crucible of Worlds.

Crucible of Worlds does not give you permission to activate the abilities of Strip Mine or Wasteland while they are in the graveyard. It will simply let you play a land that is in your graveyard as a land drop.


i think what he meant was can he bring wasteland/stripmine back and LD over and over again.

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40 Eye of Ugin and 4 foil Eye of Ugin for Black Lotus!?

"lol you'll see when these go for 50 bucks a piece in a couple months, you're just jealous. !" - Marciano 315 03/17/2010

Meddling Pimp
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posted July 14, 2010 09:37 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Meddling Pimp Click Here to Email Meddling Pimp Send a private message to Meddling Pimp Click to send Meddling Pimp an Instant MessageVisit Meddling Pimp's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JoshSherman:
I'm not sure about his p/t (I think it depends in timestamps), but I can tell you that all damage to him will still be prevented. He will lose his planeswalker abilities after being activated, becoming a vanilla */* (stars because I'm not sure), but the effect that says "prevent all damage that would be fealt to {this}" isn't actually on the card-- in that respect it's like you played Safe Passage-- and therefore can't be taken away by Humility.

By contrast, because it is printed on the card, Cho-Manno, Revolutionary would lose its damage prevention ability.


Everything above is correct, including timestamps determining the p/t. He's a 6/6 since in the original question, Humilty was in play when the ability was activated. If, however, Humility entered after the ability was activated, he would be a 1/1.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Meddling Pimp on July 14, 2010]

 
Heresy19
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posted July 14, 2010 09:46 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Heresy19 Click Here to Email Heresy19 Send a private message to Heresy19 Click to send Heresy19 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Heresy19's Have/Want ListView Heresy19's Have/Want List
Heh... Mono Blue Stax idea here...

Esperzoa + Tangle Wire... can I bounce back the Wire BEFORE it's ability hits me?

Thanks!

 
yakusoku
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posted July 14, 2010 09:59 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for yakusoku Click Here to Email yakusoku Send a private message to yakusoku Click to send yakusoku an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Heresy19:
Heh... Mono Blue Stax idea here...

Esperzoa + Tangle Wire... can I bounce back the Wire BEFORE it's ability hits me?

Thanks!


Yes and no.

At the beginning of your upkeep, all your "at the beginning of your upkeep" triggers go on the stack, in any order you choose, so you can put the Tangle Wire's ability on the stack first, then Esperzoa's on top of that. The abilities will resolve LIFO order and you will return the Tangle Wire before you have to tap anything. However, the ability will still resolve and use last known information (number of counters on Tangle Wire) and make you tap that many permanents, so it's actually DISadvantageous to stack things this way, since you can't tap Tangle Wire to its own ability.

It is not possible to do what I believe you are trying to do - you can respond to the Tangle Wire's trigger by returning it, but it won't stop you from tapping anything, any more than destroying or returning Royal Assassin to its owner's hand will stop the ability. Abilities exist independently from their source once put on the stack.

You will get to play Tangle Wire over and over, with 4 fresh new fading counters every turn, but to avoid its trigger completely, you need to counter the ability with something like Stifle, Trickbind, or Voidslime, or you need to return it to your hand before your turns starts (however, you'll obviously have to return another artifact for Esperzoa.)

 
Heresy19
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posted July 14, 2010 10:03 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Heresy19 Click Here to Email Heresy19 Send a private message to Heresy19 Click to send Heresy19 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Heresy19's Have/Want ListView Heresy19's Have/Want List
That's what I thought... some dudes on MTGSalvation posted that it worked... but I was like ''wouldn't the wire ability still resolves?''. It's still good tho, since you can re-cast wire for 4 fading counters each turn to drive your opponent nuts :P
 
JoshSherman
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posted July 14, 2010 10:57 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for JoshSherman Click Here to Email JoshSherman Send a private message to JoshSherman Click to send JoshSherman an Instant MessageVisit JoshSherman's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View JoshSherman's Trade Auction or SaleView JoshSherman's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Meddling Pimp:
Everything above is correct, including timestamps determining the p/t. He's a 6/6 since in the original question, Humilty was in play when the ability was activated. If, however, Humility entered after the ability was activated, he would be a 1/1.

So the two timestamps involved are 1)humility coming into play, and 2) when Gideon's ability is activated, right? The reason I ask is because although I had the timestamp part right, I would have explained it wrong, basing it on when Gideon came into play.

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Meddling Pimp
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posted July 14, 2010 11:12 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Meddling Pimp Click Here to Email Meddling Pimp Send a private message to Meddling Pimp Click to send Meddling Pimp an Instant MessageVisit Meddling Pimp's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JoshSherman:
So the two timestamps involved are 1)humility coming into play, and 2) when Gideon's ability is activated, right?

That is correct. Activated abilities (and effects generated by spells) are timestamped upon resolving. Static abilities are timestamped by the object entering the current zone.

Here is the relevant portion of the Comp Rules

quote:

613.6a A continuous effect generated by a static ability has the same timestamp as the object the static ability is on, or the timestamp of the effect that created the ability, whichever is later.

613.6b A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability receives a timestamp at the time it’s created.




[Edited 2 times, lastly by Meddling Pimp on July 14, 2010]
 
fargo288
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posted July 16, 2010 04:24 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for fargo288 Click Here to Email fargo288 Send a private message to fargo288 Click to send fargo288 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View fargo288's Have/Want ListView fargo288's Have/Want List
Fastbond with Angel's Grace - If I'm at 1 life, does my life just keep going back to one after I play each land?
 
junichi
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posted July 16, 2010 04:52 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for junichi Click Here to Email junichi Send a private message to junichi Click to send junichi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View junichi's Have/Want ListView junichi's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by fargo288:
Fastbond with Angel's Grace - If I'm at 1 life, does my life just keep going back to one after I play each land?


Angel's Grace

You can't lose the game this turn and your opponents can't win the game this turn. Until end of turn, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead.

So yes, you can play as many land as you wish without dying.

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40 Eye of Ugin and 4 foil Eye of Ugin for Black Lotus!?

"lol you'll see when these go for 50 bucks a piece in a couple months, you're just jealous. !" - Marciano 315 03/17/2010

nderdog
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posted July 16, 2010 10:23 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
Tonight, someone asked me an odd question about a deck idea that I wanted to double-check.

If a Traumatize mills an Emrakul, The Aeons Torn, can Ravenous Trap be played for free to remove Emrakul and the rest of the graveyard from the game before anything gets shuffled back in? I think this works, but wanted to be sure.

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All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

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thror
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posted July 16, 2010 10:54 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View thror's Trade Auction or SaleView thror's Trade Auction or Sale
Assuming traumatize mills 3 or more cards, yes, and here is why:

Traumatize mills X cards, one of them being Emrakul. Emrakul's ability is a triggered ability, but it will not be placed on the stack until after Traumatize finishes resolving. Once it is placed on the stack, both players have to pass priority. It is @ this time that you play ravenous trap, exiling that graveyard. Then Emrakul's ability resolves, and the opponent will shuffle their now empty graveyard into their library.

However, if the ability were a replacement effect instead (such as that on Progenitus), you would not be able to ravenous trap him. When Prog is milled, he is immediately shuffled back into the library, where he could possibly be milled again, and shuffled back again, etc.

 
Skwirl
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posted July 17, 2010 10:49 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Skwirl Click Here to Email Skwirl Send a private message to Skwirl Click to send Skwirl an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Okay, quick question.
If I have a Phantom Beast on the field and I have Kira, Great Glass Spinner on the field as well, and say my opponent targets Phantom Beast with a Lightning Bolt. Will I still have to sacrifice my Phantom Beast (because of his ability) even though the spell was countered by Kira's ability?

Let me know, Thanks!

[Edited 2 times, lastly by Skwirl on July 17, 2010]

 
thror
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posted July 17, 2010 11:39 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View thror's Trade Auction or SaleView thror's Trade Auction or Sale
Yes, you will still have to sac your beast. When the opp bolts him, both abilities trigger. So sadly, even though the bolt is countered, the beast dies.
 
skizzikmonger
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posted July 19, 2010 12:00 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for skizzikmonger Click Here to Email skizzikmonger Send a private message to skizzikmonger Click to send skizzikmonger an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
My opponent has Noble Hierarch and a larger creature in play. On my turn I cast Fleshbag Marauder.  Can I stack the Marauder's "enters the battlefield" ability, then cast Fling to kill the Noble and force my opponent to sac the larger creature?

[Edited 1 times, lastly by skizzikmonger on July 19, 2010]
 
caquaa
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posted July 19, 2010 02:23 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
My opponent has Noble Hierarch and a larger creature in play. On my turn I cast Fleshbag Marauder.  Can I stack the Marauder's "enters the battlefield" ability, then cast Fling to kill the Noble and force my opponent to sac the larger creature?

yes

 

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