quote:

---

Originally posted by thror:
Actually, no. NOTHING goes to the graveyard until Balance is 100% done resolving. Then ALL of them (lands, creatures, discardeds) go Simultaneously. It is very strange, and doing it in steps is the easy/simple way to do it IRL, but if you do this on MTGO, you will see that nothing actually hits the graveyard until Balance is done.

---

Does MTGO force you to put cards in the graveyard according to the group in which they were sacrificed/discarded(lands first/then discard/then creatures)?

Say they cast balance, and at the end of it, 5 of your cards are going to the graveyard. MTGO opens up a little popup window with all 5 of them there, and you click each one to send to the GY.

This is all really nitty-gritty rules, its in the comp rules, ill see if i cant find it.

404.3. If an effect or rule puts two or more cards into the same graveyard at the same time, the owner of those cards may arrange them in any order.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

They check lands, pick the relevant number (0) and sacrifice them, then discard cards, then sacrifice creatures. The fact that sacrificing creatures now puts the number of lands out of balance is irrelevant, because you already balanced the number of lands.

Having now selected the relevant number of cards to be sacrificed/discarded, they all go to the graveyard simultaneously, but in the order chosen by the owner of the cards

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dimh:
Whoever told you that should be slapped in the head. This isn't Yugioh or Pokemon, big boys can ask for oracle wordings of cards.

---

Hahahaha. It's funny because both of them have started farting around with Pokemon cards. I knew they could not have been right, but confirmation is always good Thanks guys !

1.

(My Turn)
Me:
Cast High Tide

Opp:
Sensei's Divining Top in response. Puts cards on top of deck and insta-flips a 1-CMC. "Use this for counterbalance."

Me:
"Woah woah woah! You forgot to announce CB. too bad!"

I can do this, right?

2.

(My Turn)
Me:
Cast High Tide

Opp:
"Trigger CB. Ok?"

Me:
"Ok."

Opp:
Sensei's Divining Top in response. Puts cards on top of deck and insta-flips a 1-CMC.

Me:
"Woah woah woah! Response to CB trigger.
Cast Wipe Away."

Trigger CB. reveal 1. CB is bounced. original trigger resolves or what?

quote:

---

Cards are not counted until the appropriate step. So, a land creature sacrificed to the first part of the spell would not count for the last part."

---

EDIT:
After re-reading the ruling I was probably looking at it incorrectly. I think the intent is to say that if you end up having to sacrifice 1 creature and 1 land you can't use a Dryad Arbor for both and only lose one card. I was reading it as, "you can sacrifice a Dryad Arbor during the land step to have one less creature during the creature step and possibly force your opponent to sacrifice more things".

quote:

---

Originally posted by jc-mtg:
2 scenarios. Opponent has Top and Counterbalance in play in both.

1.

(My Turn)
Me:
Cast High Tide

Opp:
Sensei's Divining Top in response. Puts cards on top of deck and insta-flips a 1-CMC. "Use this for counterbalance."

Me:
"Woah woah woah! You forgot to announce CB. too bad!"

I can do this, right?

2.

(My Turn)
Me:
Cast High Tide

Opp:
"Trigger CB. Ok?"

Me:
"Ok."

Opp:
Sensei's Divining Top in response. Puts cards on top of deck and insta-flips a 1-CMC.

Me:
"Woah woah woah! Response to CB trigger.
Cast Wipe Away."

Trigger CB. reveal 1. CB is bounced. original trigger resolves or what?

What happens when the first CB trigger on high tide resolves?

---

Your High Tide will get countered in both cases. In situation 1, he clearly knows what he is doing.

Opponent:
1 White Knight
Attacks with White Knight
Passes priority.

Me:
Flash in a Wolfir Avenger to block the White Knight.
Pass priority.

Opponent:
Casts Path to Exile on Wolfir Avenger to prevent blocking.
Pass priority.

Me:
Flash in Restoration Angel on Wolfir Avenger.

What is supposed to result from this exchange? Is the White Knight still considered "blocked?" What if I didn't cast Restoration Angel, and the Path to Exile hits? Does the mere act of declaring blockers result in the attacking creature being blocked, regardless of what happens to the blocking creature?

quote:

---

Originally posted by achaye:
I have another question regarding the timing of combat events, and I'm trying to understand the mechanics of it. Let's say:

Opponent:
1 White Knight
Attacks with White Knight
Passes priority.

Me:
Flash in a Wolfir Avenger to block the White Knight.
Pass priority.

Opponent:
Casts Path to Exile on Wolfir Avenger to prevent blocking.
Pass priority.

Me:
Flash in Restoration Angel on Wolfir Avenger.

What is supposed to result from this exchange? Is the White Knight still considered "blocked?" What if I didn't cast Restoration Angel, and the Path to Exile hits? Does the mere act of declaring blockers result in the attacking creature being blocked, regardless of what happens to the blocking creature?

Similarly, what would happen if I have a single creature in play, and the opponent casts Gatekeeper of Malakir with the kicker cost, would I be able to save my creature with Restoration Angel, or does Restoration Angel swoops up the creature, drops the creature down, and I end up having to sacrifice a creature anyway?

---

He attacks with White Knight.
You flash in Wolfir Avenger.
He uses Path to Exile targeting Wolfir Avenger BEFORE blocks.
You Restoration Angel, targeting Wolfir Avenger to save it.
And now you can block barring further responses from your opponent with either Wolfir Avenger or Restoration Angel or nothing if you so choose.

When you cast Wolfir Avenger, you are passing priority back to your opponent before blockers are declared so it is never blocking the White Knight till he lets you(which he didn't by Pathing it).

On the Gatekeeper you are correct, since Gatekeeper does not target a creature but a player, you will still have to sacrifice a creature.

quote:

---

Originally posted by thror:
Actually, no. NOTHING goes to the graveyard until Balance is 100% done resolving. Then ALL of them (lands, creatures, discardeds) go Simultaneously. It is very strange, and doing it in steps is the easy/simple way to do it IRL, but if you do this on MTGO, you will see that nothing actually hits the graveyard until Balance is done.

---

When resolving Balance, you follow the instructions in the written order.

1. Both players choose (in APNAP order) lands to sacrifice, and then sacrifice them. The lands go to the graveyard simultaneously, and each player picks the order they end up in his or her graveyard.

2. Both players choose (in APNAP order) cards to discard, and then discard them. The cards go to the graveyard simultaneously, and each player picks the order they end up in his or her graveyard.

3. Both players choose (in APNAP order) creatures to sacrifice, and then sacrifice them. The creatures go to the graveyard simultaneously, and each player picks the order they end up in his or her graveyard.

4. As a final part of resolution, Balance is put into its owner's graveyard.

Rule 608 (Resolving Spells and Abilities) deals with the written order. There's also quite explicit Gatherer ruling:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leeroy:
Please don't use MTGO as an authoritative rules resource.

---

That isn't what he did at all.

thror stated how Balance works, correctly, then said MTGO could be used a a visual representation of that, so rather than just knowing what it does, you can actually see it. Nowhere does that imply MTGO is the impetus for his answer.

And thank you Josh.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

quote:

---

Originally posted by thror:
The comprehensive rules (linked in the first post of this thread) is the definitive source for rules, and when available should be quoted imo.

---

608.2c. The controller of the spell or ability follows its instructions in the order written. However, replacement effects may modify these actions. In some cases, later text on the card may modify the meaning of earlier text (for example, "Destroy target creature. It can't be regenerated" or "Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put it on top of its owner's library instead of into its owner's graveyard.") Don't just apply effects step by step without thinking in these cases--read the whole text and apply the rules of English to the text.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

quote:

---

Originally posted by thror:
But your explanation is still wrong. NOTHING goes to the graveyard until balance is done. Spells dont happen in stages, they happen all at once. WE break them down into stages so they're easier to execute, but that doesnt change how the game works.

---

Exactly.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Link139232:
Exactly.

Just like why an X/1 will survive a Curse of Death's Hold if you steal it with Mark of Mutiny.

---

Creatures are put into the graveyard because of zero toughness as a state based action. That state is not checked during the resolution of a spell because players don't (typically?) get priority during spell resolution.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pail42:
Creatures are put into the graveyard because of zero toughness as a state based action. That state is not checked during the resolution of a spell because players don't (typically?) get priority during spell resolution.

See 704.3 and 704.5h for the specific rules on this interaction.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Link139232:
Haha thanks, I wasn't asking, I was just saying how spells resolve all at once, not in stages.

---

I understand. I was just pointing out your example provides no proof either way because it is explained by different rules. "Sacrifice" is not state based so that doesn't explain why all things are lumped into one choice for graveyard order.

quote:

---

Originally posted by thror:
But your explanation is still wrong. NOTHING goes to the graveyard until balance is done. Spells dont happen in stages, they happen all at once. WE break them down into stages so they're easier to execute, but that doesnt change how the game works.

---

Balance puts cards into the graveyard in three separate steps.

608.2c The controller of the spell or ability follows its instructions in the order written. However, replacement effects may modify these actions. In some cases, later text on the card may modify the meaning of earlier text (for example, “Destroy target creature. It can’t be regenerated” or “Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put it on top of its owner’s library instead of into its owner’s graveyard.”) Don’t just apply effects step by step without thinking in these cases—read the whole text and apply the rules of English to the text.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Link139232:
Your High Tide will get countered in both cases. In situation 1, he clearly knows what he is doing.

Situation 2, he has priority when his CB trigger goes on the stack, but you respond to the top activation with Wipe Away, CB is bounced, he looks at the top 3, and then flips a CMC 1 and counters High Tide. Also, if he blind flips CB he can counter the Wipe Away too :P

---

Link got it right but I'm going to give a little more detail.

Situation 1: Counterbalance triggers no matter what. It does not have to be announced. The controller might still choose not to or forget to reveal a card as that part is optional when the trigger resolves.

If I have Eight-and-a-Half-Tails out will his ability prevent Grim Poppet's -1/-1 counters from being able to land on my creatures? We're not sure if making him white stops his ability from hitting something with protection from white.

quote:

---

Originally posted by keywacat:
A question about Grim Poppet (and the like):

If I have Eight-and-a-Half-Tails out will his ability prevent Grim Poppet's -1/-1 counters from being able to land on my creatures? We're not sure if making him white stops his ability from hitting something with protection from white.

Cheers for the answer.

---

If grim poppet is white and your creature has protection from white then you are safe.

Situation 1 - protection from the start: a white creature has an ability that targets a creature. You can't choose to activate the ability targeting a creature that is protection from white.

Situation 2 - gaining protection before resolution: Creature A uses a targeted ability on creature B. While the abilit is on the stack creature A become white and creature B gains protection from white. The game rules will counter the ability because creature B is now an illegal target.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pail42:
If grim poppet is white and your creature has protection from white then you are safe.

Situation 1 - protection from the start: a white creature has an ability that targets a creature. You can't choose to activate the ability targeting a creature that is protection from white.

Situation 2 - gaining protection before resolution: Creature A uses a targeted ability on creature B. While the abilit is on the stack creature A become white and creature B gains protection from white. The game rules will counter the ability because creature B is now an illegal target.

Situation 3 - gaining protection after resolution: If the counter is already on your creature then giving it protection will not remove the counter.

---

So the game rules do see Grim Poppet as the source of the effect then? That is the heart of what we were not sure about given the wording of the cards, that turning GP white and then giving the intended target protection from white would work.

quote:

---

Originally posted by keywacat:
So the game rules do see Grim Poppet as the source of the effect then? That is the heart of what we were not sure about given the wording of the cards, that turning GP white and then giving the intended target protection from white would work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TBwaar:
Link got it right but I'm going to give a little more detail.

Situation 1: Counterbalance triggers no matter what. It does not have to be announced. The controller might still choose not to or forget to reveal a card as that part is optional when the trigger resolves.

Situation 2: You cast high tide. Counterbalance triggers. You say ok (pass priority). Your opponent activates top and passes. You now have priority and may either cast wipe away or pass. If you pass, top resolves and he can stack the top 3. You get priority again and may now cast wipe away with some confidence the top card is CMC 1. Counterbalance will trigger again. If your opponent has more mana available he can top again and look for a CMC 2 before the counterbalance trigger (on wipe away) resolves. He then will have another opportunity to top again before the first counterbalance trigger (on high tide) resolves. Removing counterbalance from play does not remove its triggers from the stack.

---