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Author Topic:   The Rulings and Questions Thread, part 52: Post ALL your Rules Questions Here
Tha Gunslinga
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posted July 13, 2012 04:18 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Tha Gunslinga Click Here to Email Tha Gunslinga Send a private message to Tha Gunslinga Click to send Tha Gunslinga an Instant MessageVisit Tha Gunslinga's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or SaleView Tha Gunslinga's Trade Auction or Sale
Post all your rules/tournament questions here and they will get answered. Please wait a bit before you think we ignored you, we all live lives outside of MOTL but we do answer when we see them.

If you are going to answer a question, please be 100% sure that your answer is correct. If you are just guessing or *think* you know the answer, keep it to yourself. There are plenty of judges and people who will know it correctly, and if multiple answers are given, it just confuses the person who asked.

This thread is a flame-free zone. If you can't be civil, don't respond. New players shouldn't be worried about being made fun of when they're trying to learn.

Some information for ya...

Comprehensive Rules (also available in Word, Rich Text, and PDF formats)
The complete rules for the game of Magic. Beginners should not go here; they are very intimidating.
Oracle Card Reference
The official text for every card in existence (use Gatherer for any quick questions about Oracle texts, Gatherer uses the Oracle text of all cards).
Official Tournament Rules
The official rules for sanctioned tournaments.
Basic Rulebook
Simplified rules for beginning players. If you are new to the game, you should read this and not the Comprehensive Rules.
Set FAQs
The official FAQs for each set. Look here if you have a specific question about a card.
Judge Certification Program
How to become a judge.
MTG-L mailing list archives
A good place to get official answers to rules questions, or to search for previous answers.
DCIJUDGE-L mailing list archives
The official Judge list. A good place to search for previous answers and discussion involving judging decisions, philosophy, etc. NOT rules questions. That's what MTG-L is for.

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Vegas10
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posted July 13, 2012 09:53 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Vegas10 Click Here to Email Vegas10 Send a private message to Vegas10 Click to send Vegas10 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Vegas10's Have/Want ListView Vegas10's Have/Want List
ok Pestilence in play, kills all creatures during opponents turn, openent then activates Mishra Factory and attacks, at end of turn does pestilence stay or go to graveyard? also would it be the same result if it was the pestilence players turn (Obviously the factory couldn't attack then). also please explain exactly why what happens happens so I can explain for future situations that are similiar.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Vegas10 on July 13, 2012]
 
JackSpade
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posted July 14, 2012 12:31 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for JackSpade Click Here to Email JackSpade Send a private message to JackSpade Click to send JackSpade an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Vegas10:
ok Pestilence in play, kills all creatures during opponents turn, openent then activates Mishra Factory and attacks, at end of turn does pestilence stay or go to graveyard? also would it be the same result if it was the pestilence players turn (Obviously the factory couldn't attack then). also please explain exactly why what happens happens so I can explain for future situations that are similiar.

Oracle text for Pestilence reads, "at the beginning of the next end step". Mishra's factory's animation lasts until the end of turn (cleanup step). End phase starts off with End Step, abilties that would trigger trigger, players pass priority and then move to cleanup. So Pestilence's trigger would resolve while the factory is still animated and that trigger would not be on the stack by the time the factory stops being a creature.

 
Schwingzilla
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posted July 14, 2012 05:36 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Schwingzilla Click Here to Email Schwingzilla Send a private message to Schwingzilla Click to send Schwingzilla an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Schwingzilla's Trade Auction or SaleView Schwingzilla's Trade Auction or Sale
If I have two Thawing Glaciers in play, can I do the old trick of, when the first return ability at the beginning of the cleanup step is on the stack, activate my second one, get a land, return the first one, untap, then use the second one again?

Are there a lot of situations where things happen at the beginning of the cleanup step, and how do they work? Or can no one do anything during the cleanup step?

 
keywacat
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posted July 14, 2012 05:44 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for keywacat Click Here to Email keywacat Send a private message to keywacat Click to send keywacat an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View keywacat's Have/Want ListView keywacat's Have/Want List
Does Animar's ability to reduce casting costs have the interaction I hope it does with any hydra creature? That is, free counters on the hydra?
 
yakusoku
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posted July 14, 2012 06:39 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for yakusoku Click Here to Email yakusoku Send a private message to yakusoku Click to send yakusoku an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Schwingzilla:
If I have two Thawing Glaciers in play, can I do the old trick of, when the first return ability at the beginning of the cleanup step is on the stack, activate my second one, get a land, return the first one, untap, then use the second one again?


No. The old trick worked because its ability would trigger at the beginning of the end step, so you could wait for the beginning of the end step to pass, use the ability, then untap on your turn and use the ability a second time and at the end of your turn, it would return to your hand. It currently does not work because of the Oracle wording which triggers at the beginning of the cleanup step and this rule:

quote:
Comprehensive Rules:

514. Cleanup Step

514.3. Normally, no player receives priority during the cleanup step, so no spells can be cast and no abilities can be activated. However, this rule is subject to the following exception:

514.3a At this point, the game checks to see if any state-based actions would be performed and/or any triggered abilities are waiting to be put onto the stack (including those that trigger "at the beginning of the next cleanup step"). If so, those state-based actions are performed, then those triggered abilities are put on the stack, then the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. Once the stack is empty and all players pass in succession, another cleanup step begins.


As for your next questions:

quote:


Are there a lot of situations where things happen at the beginning of the cleanup step, and how do they work? Or can no one do anything during the cleanup step?

There aren't a lot of situations where you can actually do something during the cleanup step, but lots of effects tend to wear off during the cleanup step.

quote:
CR:

514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents (including phased-out permanents) is removed and all "until end of turn" and "this turn" effects end. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.


So, these actions happen, but normally you can't do anything, including using an ability like Thawing Glaciers' ability.

The most common reason you would be able to do something is when is discarding a card with Madness during the cleanup step. If you have 8 cards in hand and discard Basking Rootwalla to go down to 7, this will create a trigger that allows you to cast it for its Madness cost. Normally you can't do things during the cleanup step.


quote:
keywacat:

Does Animar's ability to reduce casting costs have the interaction I hope it does with any hydra creature? That is, free counters on the hydra?


I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here, but let me just try to cover all the bases. By "Hydra creatures", I assume you are talking about creatures with the subtype Hydra that ALSO have an X in their cost, like Feral Hydra or Primordial Hydra. Ancient Hydra doesn't get extra counters regardless of Animar or not, Phytohydra won't get counters until damage would be dealt to it, and Khalni Hydra needs some other source to put counters on it.

You choose a value for X and Animar will reduce X by the number of counters on it, so if you choose X as 3 for Feral Hydra and there are 2 counters on Animar, you will end up spending 1G to get a 3/3 (0/0 with 3 +1/+1 counters). However, if there is only one counter on Animar, X will only be reduced by one.

Relevant rules:

quote:
Comprehensive Rules:

601. Casting Spells

601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order.

601.2a The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. That card (or that copy of a card) moves from where it is to the stack.

601.2b If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as it's being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable.

601.2e The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions.


So, you cast a Hydra creature, choose the value for X, then pay its total cost, which will be some number less than normal, depending on the number of counters on Animar.

[Edited 3 times, lastly by yakusoku on July 14, 2012]

 
Trumpeter
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posted July 16, 2012 10:32 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Trumpeter Click Here to Email Trumpeter Send a private message to Trumpeter Click to send Trumpeter an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
If my opponent's Thundermaw Hellkite enters the battlefield and the damage it deals to fliers is prevented (say via protection or Gisela), do those creatures still become tapped?
 
Sovarius
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posted July 16, 2012 10:45 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Sovarius Click Here to Email Sovarius Send a private message to Sovarius Click to send Sovarius an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Sovarius's Trade Auction or SaleView Sovarius's Trade Auction or Sale
Yes, or it would say "Tap each creature dealt damage this way'.

7/1/2012: If the damage that would be dealt to a creature with flying is prevented, that creature will still be tapped. If that damage is redirected to another creature, the creature with flying will be tapped, not necessarily the creature that ultimately was dealt damage.

 
Vegas10
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posted July 16, 2012 08:12 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Vegas10 Click Here to Email Vegas10 Send a private message to Vegas10 Click to send Vegas10 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Vegas10's Have/Want ListView Vegas10's Have/Want List
can someone tell me the best way to explain the followand and/or point me to the part in the rules/comprehensive rules that explains this, I know why it works but in a casual playgroup I'm in theyu don't understand that if you activate Jace memory adepts 0 ability or any of them for that matter that if you bounce it in response the ability still works, and that if he is cast that you can't just bounce it before the active player has the ability to use it. I know the second part is about proiority and the first part the ability goes on the stack and still resolves regardless of whether Jace is still there but trying to explain this to people who don't have the same understanding of the rules as me sometimes is difficult. any help appreciated.
 
caquaa
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posted July 16, 2012 08:37 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Vegas10:
can someone tell me the best way to explain the followand and/or point me to the part in the rules/comprehensive rules that explains this, I know why it works but in a casual playgroup I'm in theyu don't understand that if you activate Jace memory adepts 0 ability or any of them for that matter that if you bounce it in response the ability still works, and that if he is cast that you can't just bounce it before the active player has the ability to use it. I know the second part is about proiority and the first part the ability goes on the stack and still resolves regardless of whether Jace is still there but trying to explain this to people who don't have the same understanding of the rules as me sometimes is difficult. any help appreciated.

sure....


112.7. The source of an ability on the stack is the object that generated it. The source of an activated ability on the stack is the object whose ability was activated. The source of a triggered ability (other than a delayed triggered ability) on the stack, or one that has triggered and is waiting to be put on the stack, is the object whose ability triggered. To determine the source of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d–f.
112.7a. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.

and for priority:

116.1. Unless a spell or ability is instructing a player to take an action, which player can take actions at any given time is determined by a system of priority. The player with priority may cast spells, activate abilities, and take special actions.
116.1a. A player may cast an instant spell any time he or she has priority. A player may cast a noninstant spell during his or her main phase any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty.
116.1b. A player may activate an activated ability any time he or she has priority.
116.1c. A player may take some special actions any time he or she has priority. A player may take other special actions during his or her main phase any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty. See rule 115, “Special Actions.”
116.1d. A player may activate a mana ability whenever he or she has priority, whenever he or she is casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment (even in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or activating or resolving an ability).


116.3. Which player has priority is determined by the following rules:
116.3a. The active player receives priority at the beginning of most steps and phases, after any turn-based actions (such as drawing a card during the draw step; see rule 703) have been dealt with and abilities that trigger at the beginning of that phase or step have been put on the stack. No player receives priority during the untap step. Players usually don’t get priority during the cleanup step (see rule 514.3).
116.3b. The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.

one of those covers that you can only do stuff when you have priority, other covers when you get priority.

those should cover what you're after.
Just point them to rules.wizards.com
its fairly easy to remember the URL

[Edited 1 times, lastly by caquaa on July 16, 2012]

 
VxMurDokxV
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posted July 16, 2012 08:48 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for VxMurDokxV Click Here to Email VxMurDokxV Send a private message to VxMurDokxV Click to send VxMurDokxV an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I was observing a Commander game and I saw an interesting situation come up, here's the scenario. Player A controls a Sun Titan, a Nim Deathmantle, a Ashnod's Alter and some other critters and artifacts. Player B casts Austere Command choosing to destroy 1). All artifacts and 2). All creatures with converted mana cost 4 or greater. Player A says that he can save his Titan, Mantle and Alter after the Command resolves. Is this possible? If so, then how? Thanks guys, Player A's explanation seems legit, but I thought I would ask you guys to be sure.
 
caquaa
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posted July 16, 2012 09:35 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by VxMurDokxV:
I was observing a Commander game and I saw an interesting situation come up, here's the scenario. Player A controls a Sun Titan, a Nim Deathmantle, a Ashnod's Alter and some other critters and artifacts. Player B casts Austere Command choosing to destroy 1). All artifacts and 2). All creatures with converted mana cost 4 or greater. Player A says that he can save his Titan, Mantle and Alter after the Command resolves. Is this possible? If so, then how? Thanks guys, Player A's explanation seems legit, but I thought I would ask you guys to be sure.

Well when the austere command blows up the sun titan and the mantle at the same time, the mantle will trigger and you can pay the 4 mana to bring back the sun titan but the mantle will still be in the graveyard. The titan could bring back the mantle or the altar, but not both. There may be some trick w/ triggers, but not one that I'm seeing readily available w/o involving other cards.

 
TimeBeing
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posted July 17, 2012 02:25 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for TimeBeing Click Here to Email TimeBeing Send a private message to TimeBeing Click to send TimeBeing an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:

Well when the austere command blows up the sun titan and the mantle at the same time, the mantle will trigger and you can pay the 4 mana to bring back the sun titan but the mantle will still be in the graveyard. The titan could bring back the mantle or the altar, but not both. There may be some trick w/ triggers, but not one that I'm seeing readily available w/o involving other cards.

The Titan will not come back. The Death Mantel is destroyed before the Titan so it will not trigger.

608.2c. The controller of the spell or ability follows its instructions in the order written.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by TimeBeing on July 17, 2012]

 
caquaa
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posted July 17, 2012 03:28 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by TimeBeing:
The Titan will not come back. The Death Mantel is destroyed before the Titan so it will not trigger.

608.2c. The controller of the spell or ability follows its instructions in the order written.


heh, its something I actually considered then dismissed for some reason. Got it in my mind that the chosen modes were all one instruction, when certainly they aren't. Thanks for correcting that.

 
VxMurDokxV
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posted July 17, 2012 06:25 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for VxMurDokxV Click Here to Email VxMurDokxV Send a private message to VxMurDokxV Click to send VxMurDokxV an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TimeBeing:
The Titan will not come back. The Death Mantel is destroyed before the Titan so it will not trigger.

608.2c. The controller of the spell or ability follows its instructions in the order written.


Okay, cause he was sac'ing the Titan to the Alter then activating the Mantles ability in response to the resolution of the Command, allowing the Titan to come back targeting the destroyed Mantle. Then he rinsed and repeated to get the Alter.

 
caquaa
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posted July 17, 2012 01:14 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by VxMurDokxV:
Okay, cause he was sac'ing the Titan to the Alter then activating the Mantles ability in response to the resolution of the Command, allowing the Titan to come back targeting the destroyed Mantle. Then he rinsed and repeated to get the Alter.

nah, you couldn't let the triggered ability resolve after the command because it goes on the stack on top of the command.

 
Pod5f
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posted July 18, 2012 10:12 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Pod5f Click Here to Email Pod5f Send a private message to Pod5f Click to send Pod5f an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Pod5f's Have/Want ListView Pod5f's Have/Want List
So I have a question on Hypergensis interactions. So we each take turns putting permanents into play. Am I allowed to play instant speed cards and activated abilities during Hypergenesis effect??

ie. Hypergenesis resolves, I put in Griselbrand. They put in something. Am I allowed to pay the 7 life in response to them putting their permanent into play so I can draw 7 new cards to feed the Hypergensis?

just to clarify, I've been testing this deck, and someone said I couldn't do that, but I believe I can. Figured I'd take it to higher authority lol

[Edited 2 times, lastly by Pod5f on July 18, 2012]

 
thror
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posted July 18, 2012 10:25 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View thror's Trade Auction or SaleView thror's Trade Auction or Sale
You cannot do anything while a spell is resolving other than the instructions of that spell. You must completely resolve hypergenesis before you can draw 7 with griselbrand.

It's the same with brainstorm, and every other card that has more than one instruction. You cant draw 3, do some stuff, then put 2 cards back after.

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mulder
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posted July 18, 2012 03:31 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for mulder Click Here to Email mulder Send a private message to mulder Click to send mulder an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Humility question. I apologize -_-.

I have Humility in play, my opponent has an enchantment that gives all his creatures +1/+1. What is the p/t of the creatures?

I have Humility and Counterbalance. My opponent plays Vexing Shusher. Can i counter it with Counterbalance (provided i have somehting with cmc 2 on top obviously)?

 
TimeBeing
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posted July 19, 2012 02:56 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for TimeBeing Click Here to Email TimeBeing Send a private message to TimeBeing Click to send TimeBeing an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:

I have Humility in play, my opponent has an enchantment that gives all his creatures +1/+1. What is the p/t of the creatures?

2/2. the +1/+1 applies after humility makes them 1/1
Humility acts in layer 7b and the +1/+1 after in 7c

quote:

I have Humility and Counterbalance. My opponent plays Vexing Shusher. Can i counter it with Counterbalance (provided i have somehting with cmc 2 on top obviously)?

No you can't. Humility doesn't remove the abilities till it is a creature in play. It's a spell when its on the stack.

 
GremCards
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posted July 19, 2012 03:26 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for GremCards Click Here to Email GremCards Send a private message to GremCards Click to send GremCards an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I have a Vigilante Justice in play, I play a Stormblood Berserker. Do I still have to damage a player before casting the creature, or would the VJ trigger his bloodthirst?
 
caquaa
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posted July 19, 2012 04:25 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by GremCards:
I have a Vigilante Justice in play, I play a Stormblood Berserker. Do I still have to damage a player before casting the creature, or would the VJ trigger his bloodthirst?

the damage needs to be done before stormblood berserker enters play if you want it to get the counters.

Bloodthirst 2 (If an opponent was dealt damage this turn, this creature enters the battlefield with two +1/+1 counters on it.)

its not a triggered ability when it enters play, it already has the counters, as soon as its in play, if damage was done.

 
choco man
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posted July 22, 2012 04:57 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
Does Arcane Melee reduce costs for flashback?
 
JackSpade
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posted July 22, 2012 09:44 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for JackSpade Click Here to Email JackSpade Send a private message to JackSpade Click to send JackSpade an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by choco man:
Does Arcane Melee reduce costs for flashback?

Yes.

quote:
5/1/2012 Arcane Melee can reduce alternative costs such as miracle costs.
 
choco man
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posted July 23, 2012 06:55 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
Does Djinn Illuminatus let you replicate phyrexian mana spells with life?
 

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