quote:

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Originally posted by walkerdog:
...

You have no idea what you're talking about. Supply of almost anything 'can' increase 5-10x fold at any time. It won't without a good reason (OH HI DEMAND DO YOU TEND TO DRIVE INCREASED SUPPLY OR SOMETHING?). What does this have to do with your "fake inflation" blathering?

You seem to think that because there are collectors that they aren't real demand? Or that they are somehow fake inflation because they are willing to buy something that you don't think they should?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Speed Demon:
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Speed Demon:
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

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Same could easily be said of you, and has.

quote:

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Originally posted by Speed Demon:
And this is why the secondary market is a joke.

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Uhhh, what?

quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
Uhhh, what?

If it wasn't for the 2nd market, we'd buy packs to get our singles?

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Not responding to trolls who want to insult me.

quote:

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Originally posted by Speed Demon:
Not responding to trolls who want to insult me.

I am not saying the secondary market is not needed, however there is a "fake" inflation of cards that could be easily mitigated by WotC.

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quote:

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Originally posted by walkerdog:
And you again call it FAKE inflation when it is real demand. Your opinion on the right price doesn't make a different price wrong (it makes you the possessor of a bad opinion).

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So.. you're arguing over a word? Okay, you really need to get your priorities straight. And loosen up.

quote:

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Originally posted by Speed Demon:
So.. you're arguing over a word? Okay, you really need to get your priorities straight. And loosen up.

Yes there is real demand for a/the card(s). However, it has a bubble effect that can easily be popped.

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quote:

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Originally posted by walkerdog:
No, that's very important when you start trying to talk about economics; you seem to feel that the MTG Economy is some weird, overpriced, market. It isn't (barring the occasional spec bubble) any more than any other commodity market it. Demand drives almost all the prices you see; just because you hate collectors doesn't make it so that their demand is not real.

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Do you believe diamonds are worth the price that they are at the moment?

"Demand drives almost all the prices you see;". No. Just no.

quote:

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Originally posted by Speed Demon:
Not responding to trolls who want to insult me.

I am not saying the secondary market is not needed, however there is a "fake" inflation of cards that could be easily mitigated by WotC.

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Well cards aren't worth what they are worth just because of someone hoarding them. Anyone can buy out 100% of a card but if there's no real demand for something, it will not matter.

Any card worth hoarding is going to get too expensive too quickly to effectively hoard. And it's as you mentioned, if fake inflation makes something worth than its worth, the supply will just get dumped back into the market anyways. So a fake expensive card will just get back to a fair price.

Besides, "fake" inflation attempts don't even work out too well. SCG was buying up fetches for $25, but ppl still sold them for $24 on MOTL forums. SCG also fake inflated Legacy card prices, but they dropped also.

At the end of the day, Magic cards are worth money because people want them. If someone can't afford a card, it's because someone else wants it more. I just don't see how any pricing for any mtg card is "unfairly" or "falsely" inflated.

Are Ferrari prices high because of "fake inflation"? After all, they do control 100% of the supply. Even if Ferrari hired another company to help boost production, if the quality remained the same, prices would still be high. They just make a desirable product.

I can see how making a rare into a common would drastically make for a cheaper 2nd market. But at that point, mtg isn't even the same product anymore. Keeping in mind that R&D designs their product with rarity in mind. They don't make Supreme Verdict a common for drafts.

And yes Diamonds are worth what they are worth. I understand the picture that you're painting, but what makes you think that the Diamond consortium is just going to release their bank? Yes, they control the scarcity. But really why would they burst their own bubble?

quote:

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Originally posted by Speed Demon:
Do you believe diamonds are worth the price that they are at the moment?

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Yes! Because people are buying them at that price. If I were to get them at, say, 60% FMV, I'd turn around and sell them at, (or near, since I'm not a dealer, I'd probably take a slight hit) FMV! That's why it's known as FMV in fact.

A more interesting question is do I believe that diamond-value today is what they are worth in, say, 6 months or a year.

Otherwise, yes, they are worth what they're going for today because people are paying that amount. They may not be worth BUYING to me (I don't have $$Texas to go buy up diamonds or whatever), but they are worth that today.

quote:

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Originally posted by walkerdog:
Yes! Because people are buying them at that price. If I were to get them at, say, 60% FMV, I'd turn around and sell them at, (or near, since I'm not a dealer, I'd probably take a slight hit) FMV! That's why it's known as FMV in fact.

A more interesting question is do I believe that diamond-value today is what they are worth in, say, 6 months or a year.

Otherwise, yes, they are worth what they're going for today because people are paying that amount. They may not be worth BUYING to me (I don't have $$Texas to go buy up diamonds or whatever), but they are worth that today.

You have to realize that a MTG may not be worth, say, $70+ to you (Jace TMS), but that the card IS worth that much to enough people who will pay it to define Jace TMS as "worth 70+".

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I don't think you know what Speed Demon is referring to.

Are Ferrari prices high because of "fake inflation"? After all, they do control 100% of the supply. Even if Ferrari hired another company to help boost production, if the quality remained the same, prices would still be high. They just make a desirable product.

I can see how making a rare into a common would drastically make for a cheaper 2nd market. But at that point, mtg isn't even the same product anymore. Keeping in mind that R&D designs their product with rarity in mind. They don't make Supreme Verdict a common for drafts.

And yes Diamonds are worth what they are worth. I understand the picture that you're painting, but what makes you think that the Diamond consortium is just going to release their bank? Yes, they control the scarcity. But really why would they burst their own bubble?

quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
I don't think you know what Speed Demon is referring to.

Are Ferrari prices high because of "fake inflation"? After all, they do control 100% of the supply. Even if Ferrari hired another company to help boost production, if the quality remained the same, prices would still be high. They just make a desirable product.

I can see how making a rare into a common would drastically make for a cheaper 2nd market. But at that point, mtg isn't even the same product anymore. Keeping in mind that R&D designs their product with rarity in mind. They don't make Supreme Verdict a common for drafts.

And yes Diamonds are worth what they are worth. I understand the picture that you're painting, but what makes you think that the Diamond consortium is just going to release their bank? Yes, they control the scarcity. But really why would they burst their own bubble?

Yes, WOTC controls their own bubble since they print the value they create. But what is in their interest to make them burst it?

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If you mean it's a fairly tightly controlled market, sure, it is. But it's working because the game is good enough to warrant those prices; otherwise I'd go play another TCG. Instead, it is still a great game, and people are willing to pay $40 for Hellkites right now, despite that being a crazy amount for one 5CC creature. If MTG's quality drops off, we'll find a card game, a video game, or something else to do instead. Until then, they will continue to make high-quality cardboard-crack and keep us coming back.

quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
Well cards aren't worth what they are worth just because of someone hoarding them. Anyone can buy out 100% of a card but if there's no real demand for something, it will not matter.

Any card worth hoarding is going to get too expensive too quickly to effectively hoard. And it's as you mentioned, if fake inflation makes something worth than its worth, the supply will just get dumped back into the market anyways. So a fake expensive card will just get back to a fair price.

Besides, "fake" inflation attempts don't even work out too well. SCG was buying up fetches for $25, but ppl still sold them for $24 on MOTL forums. SCG also fake inflated Legacy card prices, but they dropped also.

At the end of the day, Magic cards are worth money because people want them. If someone can't afford a card, it's because someone else wants it more. I just don't see how any pricing for any mtg card is "unfairly" or "falsely" inflated.

Are Ferrari prices high because of "fake inflation"? After all, they do control 100% of the supply. Even if Ferrari hired another company to help boost production, if the quality remained the same, prices would still be high. They just make a desirable product.

I can see how making a rare into a common would drastically make for a cheaper 2nd market. But at that point, mtg isn't even the same product anymore. Keeping in mind that R&D designs their product with rarity in mind. They don't make Supreme Verdict a common for drafts.

And yes Diamonds are worth what they are worth. I understand the picture that you're painting, but what makes you think that the Diamond consortium is just going to release their bank? Yes, they control the scarcity. But really why would they burst their own bubble?

Yes, WOTC controls their own bubble since they print the value they create. But what is in their interest to make them burst it?

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"SCG also fake inflated Legacy card prices, but they dropped also." If you would be so kind, please show me the legacy cards that dropped in value (outside of FoW and Wasteland)?

Also, Diamonds are artificially worth what they are worth. I highly doubt that everyone who buys diamonds knows that diamonds are common and not really all that rare. The only reasons diamonds are worth anything is a fantastic marketing campaign and stupid people buying them.

...she'll pretty much have to...

That said, starcity has to some extent successfully 'fake' inflated prices through acquiring hard-to-find cards in high volume. The nice thing about being starcity, is that they don't have to go searching for more and more copies of a given card, but rather they are brought to them. I would guess that if I wanted to hoard some random mythic, say Kresh... if starcity offered 4.00 each on them and I offered six, they would probably still come up with more in a month than I could find in a year!

quote:

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Originally posted by MagicPatty:
Diamonds...

...she'll pretty much have to...

That said, starcity has to some extent successfully 'fake' inflated prices through acquiring hard-to-find cards in high volume. The nice thing about being starcity, is that they don't have to go searching for more and more copies of a given card, but rather they are brought to them. I would guess that if I wanted to hoard some random mythic, say Kresh... if starcity offered 4.00 each on them and I offered six, they would probably still come up with more in a month than I could find in a year!

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SCG is what's called a "price setting" entity. They don't have a monopoly on the market, but they supply enough cards on the market that they can "set" a price, within reason. Obviously these price spikes are calculated based on the velocity of their current sales.

For instance, they saw that ZEN fetches were being bought rapidly after the Modern Master announcement effectively protected them from a reprint, so SCG made the decision to lower velocity (by raising prices) in order to make a better margin on future sales. Not the first time they've done it. Won't be the last, either. The only time they end up being affected by the rest of the secondary market is when ebay or dealer-to-dealer sales indicate that SCG is way above market price.

quote:

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Originally posted by Speed Demon:
Serious question. What is wrong with 1,000 person Pro tours and 1 invite per 100 person PTQ (i.e. PTQ with 200 ppl in it = 2 Invites)?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
Because Pro Tours are becoming less relevant in the era of 3rd party high-level tournaments highlighting formats endorsed by WoTC.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Speed Demon:
What? That's more of a case to have more PT invites.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Speed Demon:
"SCG also fake inflated Legacy card prices, but they dropped also." If you would be so kind, please show me the legacy cards that dropped in value (outside of FoW and Wasteland)?

Also, Diamonds are artificially worth what they are worth. I highly doubt that everyone who buys diamonds knows that diamonds are common and not really all that rare. The only reasons diamonds are worth anything is a fantastic marketing campaign and stupid people buying them.

I am not talking about making rares into commons. I would think you know exactly what I am getting at.

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What better examples than FOW and Wasteland do you even need? Those are the two cards that make Legacy what it is and not modern. At this point, if those examples aren't enough, you're not going to be persuaded. No one can artificially set the price of cards other than WOTC.

If you still think the one example of someone holding onto a foil Jace is "fake inflation," be that way. You're free to believe what you want.

quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
What better examples than FOW and Wasteland do you even need? Those are the two cards that make Legacy what it is and not modern. At this point, if those examples aren't enough, you're not going to be persuaded. No one can artificially set the price of cards other than WOTC.

If you still think the one example of someone holding onto a foil Jace is "fake inflation," be that way. You're free to believe what you want.

Diamonds are relatively rare, at least natural ones. Normal people couldn't find one even on a good day without paying for one. Honestly, the only reason why anyone buys anything beyond necessities is good marketing. If you understand the market, you can make an awesome music player for example. Do you know anyone who "wanted" an Ipod before they actually existed? No, good products create demand. Diamonds certainly aren't worthless. And like I mentioned earlier, bubble or no bubble, the people in control aren't going to burst it. So there is absolutely no point in saying the demand is fake. Because the reality is what it is and it's not going to change.

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Do you realize the words you are actually typing? You're so full of nonsense it's completely ridiculous.

"Diamonds are relatively rare", No they aren't. I don't know why you think diamonds are rare. Great quality huge diamonds are the rare ones. Colored diamonds are rare. The little chunks of rock you get on rings are not rare.

Do you know anyone who "wanted" an Ipod before they actually existed? .. Uh yeah, Over 10 million people wanted one. They were holding cd players before Ipods. And walkman's before cdplayers.

"If you still think the one example of someone holding onto a foil Jace is "fake inflation," be that way. You're free to believe what you want." No kidding. 1 Guy holding onto 1 card isn't fake inflation. However, 1 dealer (or a few dealer) holding onto 1,000 copies of a card IS "fake" inflation (i.e. bubble).

quote:

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Originally posted by Speed Demon:
"SCG also fake inflated Legacy card prices, but they dropped also." If you would be so kind, please show me the legacy cards that dropped in value (outside of FoW and Wasteland)?

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Academy Rector. Burning Wish.

quote:

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Originally posted by gaeacradle:
Academy Rector. Burning Wish.

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I mean, you're better with prices than I will ever be, but can you show me a graph on these 2? Burning wish is 15 (which.. is pretty high IMO), and Academy Rector is 20.

How is this not proven my point of "fake" inflation?

http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Judgment/Burning+Wish/