quote:

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Originally posted by Boston:
In a commander game. If my opponent has a Thassa that is a creature and I gain control of it with Control Magic, if I later lose devotion, what happens?

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2.) Interaction between Heliod and Opalescence.
Is it correct that if Heliod is played first, Opalescence second, that Opalescence now has "active time stamp" so to speak and Heliod PT = CMC regardless of turned on or off with devotion?
Is it then correct that the reverse is true if Heliod played second - that devotion matters at that point and if Heliod turned off, he doesn't become a creature with PT = CMC at that point? A thorough explanation would be helpful - some of the searches I've done are a little to technical and don't reexplain in non-judge wording.

Just confusing - read somewhere that if devotion is OFF, it loses subtype creature. From Theros FAQ, * If an enchantment creature is turned into a creature (using Opalescence, for example), its printed power and toughness will be overwritten by the power and toughness defined by the animating effect. It will retain any supertypes and subtypes it may have had unless the animating effect specifically overwrites them. Still seems ambiguous.

Also read:
Q: How does Opalescence work with Heliod, God of the Sun?

A: Heliod is already sparkly and shiny like an opal, so you might think it wouldn't do much. But you would be wrong! Hopping into the layer system, we see two effects in layer 4 and one in 7b. There's no dependency between the two in layer 4, so they apply in timestamp order: if Heliod was there first, Opalescence will make it into a creature again if your devotion is too low; with Opalescence first, its effect does nothing notable and then Heliod's effect makes it a noncreature. So if Heliod entered the battlefield first or if you have sufficient devotion, Heliod leaves layer 4 as a creature, only to find itself small and puny in layer 7b when its majestic 5/6 body is downsized to a mere 4/4.

So there appears to be four permutations - Heliod First, Devotion on vs off. Opalescence first, Devotion on vs off. Using layer 4/7b, can someone explain in technical terms and then dumb it down for me?

I read the comprehensive rules, dependency doesn't apply does it?

3.) Interaction with Celestial Archon and Opalescence. Does it follow the same rules as above for timestamp (when Archon played as creature of course).

4.) Opalescence and Cleric Tokens made by Heliod. When are they 2/1s vs 0/0s? And if 0/0s will a crusade effect keep them on the battlefield?

[Edited 4 times, lastly by ryan2754 on February 18, 2014]

quote:

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Originally posted by ryan2754:
1.)Angelic Chorus and Outrider En-Kor in play.
I play Task Force. With the Chorus trigger on the stack, can I target it with Outrider repeatedly to pump it's toughness before Chorus trigger resolves?

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Yes. It checks the creatures' toughness when the ability resolves. If the creature leaves play before then it will use the last known toughness of the creature.

quote:

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Originally posted by ryan2754:
12.) Interaction between Heliod and Opalescence.
Is it correct that if Heliod is played first, Opalescence second, that Opalescence now has "active time stamp" so to speak and Heliod PT = CMC regardless of turned on or off with devotion?
Is it then correct that the reverse is true if Heliod played second - that devotion matters at that point and if Heliod turned off, he doesn't become a creature with PT = CMC at that point? A thorough explanation would be helpful - some of the searches I've done are a little to technical and don't reexplain in non-judge wording.

Just confusing - read somewhere that if devotion is OFF, it loses subtype creature. From Theros FAQ, * If an enchantment creature is turned into a creature (using Opalescence, for example), its printed power and toughness will be overwritten by the power and toughness defined by the animating effect. It will retain any supertypes and subtypes it may have had unless the animating effect specifically overwrites them. Still seems ambiguous.

Also read:
Q: How does Opalescence work with Heliod, God of the Sun?

A: Heliod is already sparkly and shiny like an opal, so you might think it wouldn't do much. But you would be wrong! Hopping into the layer system, we see two effects in layer 4 and one in 7b. There's no dependency between the two in layer 4, so they apply in timestamp order: if Heliod was there first, Opalescence will make it into a creature again if your devotion is too low; with Opalescence first, its effect does nothing notable and then Heliod's effect makes it a noncreature. So if Heliod entered the battlefield first or if you have sufficient devotion, Heliod leaves layer 4 as a creature, only to find itself small and puny in layer 7b when its majestic 5/6 body is downsized to a mere 4/4.

So there appears to be four permutations - Heliod First, Devotion on vs off. Opalescence first, Devotion on vs off. Using layer 4/7b, can someone explain in technical terms and then dumb it down for me?

3.) Interaction with Celestial Archon and Opalescence. Does it follow the same rules as above for timestamp (when Archon played as creature of course).

4.) Opalescence and Cleric Tokens made by Heliod. When are they 2/1s vs 0/0s? And if 0/0s will a crusade effect keep them on the battlefield?

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I'm trying to answer these as best I can. Opalessence creates some of the most complicated situations in magic...

4) the cleric tokens will always be 0/0 since there is only one effect (opalessence) changing the p/t and they have a CMC of 0.

3) celestial archon is different than the gods. Like the cleric tokens it doesn't have an effect changing its p/t so it will always follow opalessence.

quote:

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Originally posted by chaos021:
In regards to heroic abilities,

1. Yes, Reap What Is Sown will trigger all heroic abilities.

2. No, you can only put a maximum of one +1/+1 counter per creature. You can just do that for up to 3 creatures if I'm reading it correctly.

In regards to Xenagos, yes you can. The planeswalker only checks to see if another Planeswalker has the same subtype. The legendary god only checks to see if there's another legend with the same name. Both of them don't find either.

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thanks for the clarification and answers..

quote:

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Originally posted by wayne:
Mattias Hunt mentioned something about having 2 Amulet of Vigor in play around the 5:25 mark. Can someone explain to me how that works out better than just having 1 Amulet in play in the Amulet combo deck?

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptbng1 4/video3

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http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=191577 amulet of vigor.

3/1/2010 If you control more than one Amulet of Vigor, each Amulet's ability triggers when a permanent enters the battlefield tapped and under your control. The first ability that resolves will untap that permanent. If the permanent somehow becomes tapped again before the next ability resolves, the next ability will untap it as well (and so on).

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

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Originally posted by flam flawless:
If you have an active god (say mogis) and your opponent uses soul ransom, but doesn't have enough to keep god active, would the enchantment fall off & return the mogis back to the owner or would it stay in play on an inactive mogis on opponents side?

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Once it stops being a creature, I believe Soul Ransom just falls off as part of state-based effects. I'd wait until someone else answers that though.

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

quote:

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Originally posted by chaos021:
Once it stops being a creature, I believe Soul Ransom just falls off as part of state-based effects. I'd wait until someone else answers that though.

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" Last Breath
Instant
Exile target creature with power 2 or less. Its controller gains 4 life.."

[B]I had 2 life left and had 2 creature in play a Phalanx Leader and a Fable Heros.My Opponent cast a SHOCK directing me a 2 damages..In responds cast Last Breath and target my Phalanx leader.and gain 4 life...[B]

[U]QUESTION[U]

1) does a heroic ability of Phalanx leader trigger by targeting and exiled him?

quote:

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Originally posted by Encantadian:
QUESTION ABOUT Phalanx Leader:

" Last Breath
Instant
Exile target creature with power 2 or less. Its controller gains 4 life.."

I had 2 life left and had 2 creature in play a Phalanx Leader and a Fable Heros.My Opponent cast a SHOCK directing me a 2 damages..In responds cast Last Breath and target my Phalanx leader.and gain 4 life...

[U]QUESTION[U]

1) does a heroic ability of Phalanx leader trigger by targeting and exiled him?

2)does my fabled heroes put a +1/+1 counter on phalanx heroic ability by targeting phalanx leader a last breath speels...?

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1. Yes. The Phalanx Leader trigger still goes off. The other creatures you control that are on the battlefield will get a +1/+1 counter.

2. I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here, but I believe you want to know if Fabled Hero's ability will be triggered by Phalanx Leader's ability. If that's your question, the answer is no. Heroic abilities require you to cast a spell that targets that creature. The only thing targeting Fabled Hero in that instance is a triggered ability (not a spell).

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

quote:

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Originally posted by J-man:
I have Nighthowler bestowed on Agent of the Fates, with no creatures in any graveyards. Opponent casts shock on Agent of the Fates. What happens to my Nighthowler? Does it go to the graveyard because it's a 0/0 or does it become a 1/1 creature?

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Shock deals 2 damage to Agent.
State-based effects sees a 2-toughness creature with 2 damage marked on it.
Agent of Fates goes to the graveyard, and Nighthowler falls off.
Nighthowler goes to 1/1 when state-based effects are checked again.
Nighthowler lives to get shocked another day.

I'm pretty sure it goes something like that.

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
would xenagos god of revels trigger again if you have additional combat steps?

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quote:

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Originally posted by chaos021:
1. Yes. The Phalanx Leader trigger still goes off. The other creatures you control that are on the battlefield will get a +1/+1 counter.

2. I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here, but I believe you want to know if Fabled Hero's ability will be triggered by Phalanx Leader's ability. If that's your question, the answer is no. Heroic abilities require you to cast a spell that targets that creature. The only thing targeting Fabled Hero in that instance is a triggered ability (not a spell).

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thanks chaos,in responds to your answer number 2..that's what i'm talking about..can a fabled heroes heroic ability trigger by phalanx leader by exiling phalanx leader itself...

ONE MORE CLARIFICATION:

[QUOTE][B]

Glimpse the Sun God
Instant (U)
Tap X target creatures. Scry 1.[QUOTE][B]

i had 2 heroic creature in play Vanguard of Brimaz and a Phalanx Leader. at the end of my opponents.i cast Glimpse of the Sun God.Paying X(=2)W target my Vanguard of brimaz and Phalanx Leader for tapping them..

[B]1)can a heroic ability of Vanguard of Brimaz and Phalanx Leader triggered by Glimpse the Sun God.?

2)Can i put a 1/1 white token for vanguard of brimaz heroic ability.?

3) can i put a +1/+1 on vanguard of brimaz 1/1 white and Vanguard of brimaz by Phalanx Leader heroic ability?

4) can a card like Glimpse the Sun god,Sown What is Reap.a Spell with multiple targets trigger all heroic creature in play.? [B]

quote:

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Originally posted by Encantadian:
thanks chaos,in responds to your answer number 2..that's what i'm talking about..can a fabled heroes heroic ability trigger by phalanx leader by exiling phalanx leader itself...

ONE MORE CLARIFICATION:

[QUOTE]

Glimpse the Sun God
Instant (U)
Tap X target creatures. Scry 1.[QUOTE]

i had 2 heroic creature in play Vanguard of Brimaz and a Phalanx Leader. at the end of my opponents.i cast Glimpse of the Sun God.Paying X(=2)W target my Vanguard of brimaz and Phalanx Leader for tapping them..

1)can a heroic ability of Vanguard of Brimaz and Phalanx Leader triggered by Glimpse the Sun God.?

2)Can i put a 1/1 white token for vanguard of brimaz heroic ability.?

3) can i put a +1/+1 on vanguard of brimaz 1/1 white and Vanguard of brimaz by Phalanx Leader heroic ability?

4) can a card like Glimpse the Sun god,Sown What is Reap.a Spell with multiple targets trigger all heroic creature in play.?

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1. Yes. You cast a spell that targets creatures with heroic abilities. They both trigger from Glimpse of the Sun God.

2. Yes.

3. If I understand you correctly, you want to know if you can put a Vanguard of Brimaz token out and get a counter on it? If so, I believe you can. You have to stack your triggered abilities properly since they both happen simultaneously. Put Phalanx Leader's ability on the stack first. Then Vanguard's ability. Vanguard's ability will resolve first. You get the token. Then Phalanx Leader's ability resolves, and you put +1/+1 counters on all creatures in play when it resolves.

4. It can trigger as many heroic abilities for which there are legal targets. Reap What is Sown can only have up to 3 targets whereas Glimpse of the Sun God is limited by your choice of X in the casting cost.

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

quote:

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Originally posted by VJames83:
1. I have a Vial on 2 and a Tidehollow Sculler in hand. Opponent casts Brainstorm in my end step, reveals the first card drawn as Terminus, and puts the Miracle trigger on the stack. Because Miracle states "reveal this card from your hand", can I respond by vialing-in the Sculler and taking the Terminus?

2. Opponent casts Show and Tell. He puts in Griselbrand, I put in Oblivion Ring. Can he activate Grisel's ability before it is exiled?

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1) You should be able too. I know you can stifle miracle triggers, so appropriately you should be able to respond to the miracle trigger (obviously before he pays it)

quote:

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Originally posted by VJames83:
1. I have a Vial on 2 and a Tidehollow Sculler in hand. Opponent casts Brainstorm in my end step, reveals the first card drawn as Terminus, and puts the Miracle trigger on the stack. Because Miracle states "reveal this card from your hand", can I respond by vialing-in the Sculler and taking the Terminus?

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1) Yes the Terminus is in his hand while the trigger is still on the stack (make sure you let him finish resolving brainstorm before announcing the Tidehollow)

quote:

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Originally posted by chaos021:
1. Yes. You cast a spell that targets creatures with heroic abilities. They both trigger from Glimpse of the Sun God.

2. Yes.

3. If I understand you correctly, you want to know if you can put a Vanguard of Brimaz token out and get a counter on it? If so, I believe you can. You have to stack your triggered abilities properly since they both happen simultaneously. Put Phalanx Leader's ability on the stack first. Then Vanguard's ability. Vanguard's ability will resolve first. You get the token. Then Phalanx Leader's ability resolves, and you put +1/+1 counters on all creatures in play when it resolves.

4. It can trigger as many heroic abilities for which there are legal targets. Reap What is Sown can only have up to 3 targets whereas Glimpse of the Sun God is limited by your choice of X in the casting cost.

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thanks chaos021.you anwer my all question well at least now i know.

thanks buddy! and good day

quote:

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Originally posted by Encantadian:
I had 2 life left and had 2 creature in play a Phalanx Leader and a Fable Heros.My Opponent cast a SHOCK directing me a 2 damages..In responds cast Last Breath and target my Phalanx leader.and gain 4 life...

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Two players have Notion Thief in play.

What happens if:
- One of the two players controlling a Notion Thief gets an extra card draw
- One of the two players not controlling a Notion Thief gets an extra card draw

quote:

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Originally posted by Azuriae:
I couldn't figure this one out, it got me confused. In a 4 players EDH game:

Two players have Notion Thief in play.

What happens if:
- One of the two players controlling a Notion Thief gets an extra card draw
- One of the two players not controlling a Notion Thief gets an extra card draw

Thanks for the help.

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Lets call the two players with Notion Theif Player A and Player B, everybody else is Player X.

If Player A would draw an extra card:
- Player B's Notion Thief replaces the draw with a draw for B
- Player A's Notion Thief replaces that draw with a draw for A.
- Player B's Notion Thief has already replaced the draw event that started this chain and it can't replace it again.
End result: Player A draws a card.

If Player X would draw an extra card:
- Player X chooses A's or B's Notion Thief to replace the draw.
- The other Notion Thief then replaces that draw.
End Result: Player X gets to choose which of the players with a Notion Thief will draw the card because he gets to choose which replacement effect happens first.

In all cases only one player will be drawing cards.

Most relevant rules:

quote:

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614.5. A replacement effect doesn’t invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it.
Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads "If a creature you control would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals double that damage to that creature or player instead." A creature that normally deals 2 damage will deal 8 damage -- not just 4, and not an infinite amount.

616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).

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