quote:

---

Originally posted by Jazaray:
And it's 8 pages mostly arguing over whether there's a vig or an sk.. How exactly did that help any? I don't think that you guys should have continued with the lynch on fwy, once he came out that he was the SK, and I'm kind of suspicious of anyone who continued to vote for him after he came out. It made no sense to lynch him, when he was a known quantity, and he could have been a major help with scum hunting.

---

ryan2754 covered most of this already, but he felt that the SK generated lots of discussion, which was good for feeling people out. You got to see who stood where and why. It was also a welcome change of pace from the usual round one of someone saying, "I randomly vote for X", then another person saying that they're voting for that person for choosing randomly. A third person comes on and decides to vote for someone, but doesn't specify who. A fourth person says, "I'm here, but I don't have any ideas. I'll post later." Then there's a post saying we should all go after quiet players, as there's probably a Mafia member there and another post saying that that may be true, but there's probably a person dealing with IRL issues who's not Mafia. Someone who was previously quiet speaks up and says he was busy. Someone else says it's a stupid strategy to go after quiet players and we should go after vocal players who are trying to influence the game. Another person says that's an even worse idea, as you're just getting people to stay quiet and if we're all quiet, Citizens are just choosing people randomly, while Mafia has far more information and we're handing them the game. Someone else says that person is suspicious, they just don't want one of their Mafia teammates who is vocal to die. etc.

The argument for keeping the SK only works if you think the SK is going to be able to really kill a Mafia. They get another guess, but absent lots of information, it really is a guess. ryan and others may not have thought that fwybwed was going to be able to get a Mafia, especially given that randomly, he's far more likely to hit a Citizen in the dark, then to get a Mafia and that just speeds up the game.

quote:

---

@Gawain - I hate math too. REALLY hate it.

---

I understand people hate math, and I'll try to cut back on the math stuff in the future, but I also think it's in bad taste to heighten your suspicions of a player for an aspect outside of the game. If I said, "I don't trust women; I think they lie more often than men. Jazaray is on my short list of suspects", I'd be read the riot act and possibly given a smack by a moderator.

Gawain's post of "I don't like math. I skimmed that post. I think it's just a trick" isn't nearly as bad, but it's not good, either.

Now that we know JackSpade wasn't Mafia, Montague's post:

quote:

---

This makes me feel like Jaz knows something that we don't. It makes me a little nervous.

---

could have many implications, including...

1) Jaz really is Mafia and knew Jack wasn't Mafia
2) Montague is really Mafia and knew Jack wasn't Mafia and knows that Jaz isn't Mafia, but knows she's on the right track.
3) Montague is Mafia, Jaz is Mafia. Montague is trying to play like he's got a suspicion of her in case she goes down.
4) Montague is a Citizen, Jaz is a Citizen, two or three Mafia voted for Jack and could let Montague's suspicion ride.

quote:

---

junichi:

I do find it out of character that Yaku would do a retaliatory vote. He seems to be chill most of the time, so I'm not sure if he is just frustrated, or is this just a setup between you two.

---

It's frustration. Sometimes, especially with Gawain, it feels like I post a lot and someone says that's a sign I'm Mafia. I don't post a lot and that means I'm Mafia. I post analysis and that means I'm Mafia. I post trite comments and that means I'm Mafia. I don't post for a day, I'm Mafia. I post three times in one day, I'm Mafia. I'm playing strongly, I'm Mafia. I'm playing weakly, that's out of character, I'm Mafia. It feels like he's singling me out for my actions when we have other players who are changing their postings either in intervals between postings, content, or direction, but I'm more vocal than most, so my posts get far more scrutiny than many others.

It's not a retaliatory vote, as that's pointless, but I did feel like he was really going after me last round AND this round and since I know that I'm not Mafia, I can only conclude that either he's a another Citizen and we're just chasing each other round a tree while the Mafia sit back and laugh at us, or he is a Mafia and really pushing for me, while a bunch of other people push for Jack (including probably, at least one Mafia).

Last note:

voted for yakusoku:

Gawain
JackSpade

voted for thror:

hilikuS
LA3

voted for JackSpade:

junichi
Montague
OGB
rayragnarok
thror

voted for rayragnarok:

Jazaray

voted for Jazaray:

WCFmo

voted for Gawain:

yakusoku

quote:

---

Originally posted by yakusoku:
ryan2754 covered most of this already, but he felt that the SK generated lots of discussion, which was good for feeling people out. You got to see who stood where and why. It was also a welcome change of pace from the usual round one of someone saying, "I randomly vote for X", then another person saying that they're voting for that person for choosing randomly. A third person comes on and decides to vote for someone, but doesn't specify who. A fourth person says, "I'm here, but I don't have any ideas. I'll post later." Then there's a post saying we should all go after quiet players, as there's probably a Mafia member there and another post saying that that may be true, but there's probably a person dealing with IRL issues who's not Mafia. Someone who was previously quiet speaks up and says he was busy. Someone else says it's a stupid strategy to go after quiet players and we should go after vocal players who are trying to influence the game. Another person says that's an even worse idea, as you're just getting people to stay quiet and if we're all quiet, Citizens are just choosing people randomly, while Mafia has far more information and we're handing them the game. Someone else says that person is suspicious, they just don't want one of their Mafia teammates who is vocal to die. etc.

---

I'm sorry if it wasn't supposed to be funny, but... that made me laugh soooo hard. Ok, I can see that, and you're right, it was definitely more interesting than the usual "I'm gonna roll a die" r1.

quote:

---

Originally posted by yakusoku:
The argument for keeping the SK only works if you think the SK is going to be able to really kill a Mafia. They get another guess, but absent lots of information, it really is a guess. ryan and others may not have thought that fwybwed was going to be able to get a Mafia, especially given that randomly, he's far more likely to hit a Citizen in the dark, then to get a Mafia and that just speeds up the game.

---

I don't know, I still think that fwy could have helped us out somewhat, plus I think that the mafia would have wasted one of their NK's on him, which would have given us more cits.

quote:

---

Originally posted by yakusoku:
I understand people hate math, and I'll try to cut back on the math stuff in the future, but I also think it's in bad taste to heighten your suspicions of a player for an aspect outside of the game. If I said, "I don't trust women; I think they lie more often than men. Jazaray is on my short list of suspects", I'd be read the riot act and possibly given a smack by a moderator.

Gawain's post of "I don't like math. I skimmed that post. I think it's just a trick" isn't nearly as bad, but it's not good, either.

---

I'm sorry if you thought that that comment was directed at you in any way, it wasn't. I was just agreeing that I really hate math. It has nothing to do with my suspicions toward you. Come on, that's kind of a ridiculous reason to suspect someone.. "They post math stuff and I hate math, they must be mafia rawr!" And I don't smack people for suspecting me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by yakusoku:
It's frustration. Sometimes, especially with Gawain, it feels like I post a lot and someone says that's a sign I'm Mafia. I don't post a lot and that means I'm Mafia. I post analysis and that means I'm Mafia. I post trite comments and that means I'm Mafia. I don't post for a day, I'm Mafia. I post three times in one day, I'm Mafia. I'm playing strongly, I'm Mafia. I'm playing weakly, that's out of character, I'm Mafia. It feels like he's singling me out for my actions when we have other players who are changing their postings either in intervals between postings, content, or direction, but I'm more vocal than most, so my posts get far more scrutiny than many others.

---

I agree with you here. It does seem like a you're damned if you, damned if you don't situation. And it doesn't seem fair, but people who haven't got any other leads will jump on whatever they can (IE: WCFmo and his suspicion of me because I didn't post when he decided I should. No matter how often I post from here on out, because I didn't post during what was a very busy weekend, it's suspicious.).

quote:

---

Originally posted by yakusoku:

Next thing is, I'd like to go back and see who declared their votes for who in what order, like I did last time. Any objections?

---

No objections from me.

Speaking of WCF. Onto him.

quote:

---

Originally posted by WCFmo:
Didn't you just get on to me for being defensive? The point is that you are subtly supporting GAW's view against YAK and then say that YAK is suspicious, seems like a very subtle way to say hey GAW your right about YAK, at least that's what it appeared that way to me.

---

Actually, no, I decided that Yak was suspicious ALL on my own. It had nothing to do with Gawain thinking he's suspicious, nor for the same reasons that Gawain thinks he is. In fact, I think Gawain's reasons are quite off, although I agree with the suspicion.

quote:

---

Originally posted by WCFmo:
Because I vote for the person I think is more likely mafia. You were the one who said you don't think JackSpade is suspicious, personally his demeanor this game HAS BEEN suspicious but that doesn't make him mafia. However, you came out basically saying (after it was apparent he would be lynched) that he wasn't mafia. See Monty's quote below VVV

---

It was my first post of the game, and some people thought he was suspicious before that. It's not like I could have posted before that, I WASN'T IN THE GAME. Just as I think that Gawain's reasons for Yak are off, I thought that the people's reasoning behind why Jack was suspicious were off as well. And I'm entitled to my opinion on that, whether or not it agrees with the majority. And, by the way, I WAS RIGHT, wasn't I? You've been suspicious of Jack for practically the whole game, and because of ONE reason, you switched your vote from him, to me. I find that highly suspicious.

quote:

---

Originally posted by WCFmo:
If both of you are mafia, you'd probably jump on Jack's bandwagon so as to appear like a cit. However, you say right away that he doesn't appear like he's mafia after everyone has pretty much decided he was the next lynch...that's one more thing that bothers me.

---

First off, "everyone" didn't think Jack was suspicious, nor that he was "the next lynch", but I find it funny that as adamant as you were that he was mafia, and that he was suspicious, and that he was "the next lynch" you STILL switched your vote, very late in the round, to someone that was NOT going to get lynched. That's one more thing that bothers ME.

quote:

---

Originally posted by WCFmo:
Yes, I know you did the secret santa thing and I don't expect you to post once per page (I was saying this b/c Zak appeared to be posting enough but asked for a replacement anyways) but I would have expected something similar to this VVVV

---

I'm sorry that you think I should have posted a lengthy post about why I was busy. But.. I was busy. There was a lot of information to absorb, and I just had practically no time. As for my post on MOTL Salvation, I hadn't posted there in 5 days, not 1 or 2. And I was offering to have a replacement assigned, because I knew I would be extremely busy with my Census work. That wasn't the case here, at all.

Thanks,
Jazaray

Edit: Fixed UBB code

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jazaray:

And, by the way, I WAS RIGHT, wasn't I?

---

Well you might have already known didn't you?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jazaray:

First off, "everyone" didn't think Jack was suspicious, nor that he was "the next lynch",

---

# junichi - JackSpade (1)
# Montague - JackSpade (2)
# OGB - JackSpade (3)
# rayragnarok - JackSpade (4)
# thror - JackSpade (5)

If you count LA3 and me that's 7 people. That's a lot of people right? Maybe not everyone as you didn't find him suspicious, but if you didn't realize that JACK was the next lynch then you must have skipped several pages in the thread when you read it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jazaray:

but I find it funny that as adamant as you were that he was mafia, and that he was suspicious,

---

Where do I say I am absolutely positive that JACK is mafia? Let me know when you find it. /sarcasm

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jazaray:

I'm sorry that you think I should have posted a lengthy post about why I was busy. But.. I was busy.

---

That post is to reference what I think you normally post like, the last one was kind of an aww shucks post and not like the post of getting back into it. You usually explain long absences (from what I've seen), but you didn't here, to me that's odd. Secondly, you say you don't post much in the early rounds, why now? If that is so against your playstyle, why feel the need to defend yourself against one person who thinks your suspicious?

RE: Your hating math. The point is it seems you were buddying him, not that you were stealing his suspicions. I.e. - you want him to vote YAK

quote:

---

Originally posted by WCFmo:

RE: Your [Jaz's] hating math. The point is it seems you were buddying him, not that you were stealing his suspicions. I.e. - you want him to vote YAK

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WCFmo:

# junichi - JackSpade (1)
# Montague - JackSpade (2)
# OGB - JackSpade (3)
# rayragnarok - JackSpade (4)
# thror - JackSpade (5)

If you count LA3 and me that's 7 people. That's a lot of people right? Maybe not everyone as you didn't find him suspicious, but if you didn't realize that JACK was the next lynch then you must have skipped several pages in the thread when you read it.

---

Admittedly, I didn't see much of a case for Jack either. I think it's a matter of people not being used to how he plays yet. He's gotten cit lynched in the last two games, and we've been wrong both times.

Regarding the 5 man pile on him, even by sheer odds there's gotta be at least one bad guy. Thror was my vote from last round as I felt like he jumped on late. He did state that he was suspicious of Jack last round too though. I'm not going to read back, and I believe that to be true.

I guess as far as my suspicion of thror I need to think about whether he was trying to get Jack lynched, as well as whether or not he was just incorrect, or he was trying to make a mob play. In retrospect I feel like thror was just incorrect. Why? Basically it involves the sheer number of players voting Spade this round. He seemed suspicious to a lot of people. It's pretty possible I just didn't see what the majority were seeing, and thror saw it. Even if I believe there are mafia in this pile, I don't think thror is my suspect right now. My reasoning for voting him was based on his vote, and not anything else suspicious.

From my perspective I'm going to rule out thror, and try to concentrate on the other members of the pile of Spades. Hopefully I'll come up with some ideas.

EDIT: There are only 5 Spade voters, not sure why WCF says 7 there.

JackSpade's arrest didn't sit right with me. I kept trying to think why as I approached my car. We were all leaving at last but JackSpade still occupied my mind. With key in hand, I realised. That was the broken taser that Jazaray had given JackSpade to fix earlier.

I quickly looked around for Jazaray. But as soon as I spotted her, she went up in flames. Her car exploded forcing myself to use my own as a shield. As the vehicle burned away with her inside, I reached for my phone to get the authorities down here yet again. This time I think they'll be sticking around for a good long while.

Votes due Monday Night 8 PM. MOTL Time

{Summary: Jazaray is killed. Status Citizen}

__________________
40 Eye of Ugin and 4 foil Eye of Ugin for Black Lotus!?

That is a surprised.

@junichi

you kidding me, thats all you have to say. You must be mafia otherwise you would have elaborated more.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LA3:
originally posted by junichi

That is a surprised.

@junichi

you kidding me, thats all you have to say. You must be mafia otherwise you would have elaborated more.

---

Anyway, I would assume the mafias are desperate trying to gun down the cop, and Jaz showed a bit of that "know all" vibe, hence the kill.

__________________
40 Eye of Ugin and 4 foil Eye of Ugin for Black Lotus!?

Suspect less than before: Yaku. Will elaborate soon.
Suspect more than before: Junichi (still suspected a lot before though).
New Suspect/s: WCFmo.

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

"hence the kill"

@junichi

And you say I'm am bandwagon

White flaq admission right here

quote:

---

Originally posted by LA3:
Spoken by junichi

"hence the kill"

@junichi

And you say I'm am bandwagon

White flaq admission right here

Next vote-junichi

---

__________________
40 Eye of Ugin and 4 foil Eye of Ugin for Black Lotus!?

What you posted before the one above me is not a misinterpreted. Why you also mentioned vibe. That vibe jaz/zak knew too much or too little of a threat.

Don't be offended, just covering facts of your statementm

quote:

---

Originally posted by LA3:
@junichi

What you posted before the one above me is not a misinterpreted. Why you also mentioned vibe. That vibe jaz/zak knew too much or too little of a threat.

Don't be offended, just covering facts of your statementm

---

Not offended, it's just a game, but I seriously don't understand what you are talking about. What do you mean when you say "Why you also mentioned vibe."?

Anyway, the reason why I said Jaz gave out that pro-town cop like vibe, is because she sounds certain about Jack being a citizen while pointing out WCFmo as a possible suspect due to the last minute vote switching. Jaz is right on the Jack part, but no one knows if the WCFmo part is right as well (other than the cop, mafia, and WCFmo himself).

If WCFmo is indeed a mafia, then the mafia would definitely want to take Jaz out of the game thinking she has the highest possibility of being the cop out of everyone here, since she is 2 for 2 in terms of knowing people's role.

If WCFmo is not a mafia, then there isn't really much reason to kill Jaz at this point, since WCFmo is trying to vote Jaz out of the game, and nothing is better for the mafia than to have 2 citizens going off against each other.

What I'm surprised is, OGB and Mont both haven't taken much heat so far in the game, and have both been flying under the radar; If I am mafia and either OGB and/or Mont are citizen(s), I would've gone for either of them while adding fuel to the fire between WCFmo and Jaz.

__________________
40 Eye of Ugin and 4 foil Eye of Ugin for Black Lotus!?

I agree about monty not talking much so i think he has a role whther he is mafia or not i dont.

I have a feeling that with jaz talking about WCFmo, that he is not the cop

So heres my gut feeling so far

Monty- has an undetermined role
WCFMo-potential mafia

I also notice Gawain still being, however he is not a cop so i think he is a citizen

we have

you junichi- i think your a citizen
ray
yakusoku
hilikuS
OGB
Thror

@Liq have you updated your deceased list yet, seems short

my honest opinion is follows

quiet or no quiet

Thror or ray have neither spoken a lot
HilikuS or Yaku could be the cop, but i am not sure

Right now my vote is one of the following

Jaz took one for the team last night, in an attempt to give our cop more information. There are 10 of us left, and 4 of them are mafia (Liq said so on page 2 if you don't believe me). Which means, if we do NOT lynch a mobster TODAY, we lose the game.

It is time for the cits with roles to reveal.

I am the Doctor. My attempted saves were Ryan(R0) and myself (R1 and R2). I could not get a read on the cop, and as such felt saving myself for this scenario would be important.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

quote:

---

Jazaray:

I'm sorry if it wasn't supposed to be funny, but... that made me laugh soooo hard.

---

That was unintentionally funny, but I'll gladly take that as a compliment.

quote:

---

Gawain:

I have a laundry list of reasons for all this and it's gonna be a hearty post, so I wanna save it for later when I'll have more time, but I should be back on tonight with a full explanation/post.

---

I'll come back tonight just to read this. I'm totally psyched to see what you have to say.

quote:

---

Originally posted by hilikuS:
There are only 5 Spade voters, not sure why WCF says 7 there.

---

He was responding to Jazaray's assertion that not everyone thought JackSpade was suspicious. He counted the 5 voters plus LA3 and WCFmo who suspected Jack, but didn't vote for him. Suspicion != vote. I also suspected Jack, but I have't voted for him this game.

quote:

---

HilikuS or Yaku could be the cop, but i am not sure

---

If the cop follows thror's lead, this is moot, but I am not the cop.

Oh, and thanks, thror; you beat me to the punch. I was just wondering if it's time for the cop to come out and let us know:

A) who he is
B) whom he chose during his night actions

I thought we were close, but I didn't do the math (I swear, the ONE time...) and didn't realize this was the do or die round.

I know you might think its time to reveal
However if you did not get any mafia confirmed don't

My reasoning is it would be foolish to reveal who isn't mafia, since we would lose the game if we didn't nab a mafia member.

quote:

---

Originally posted by LA3:
However if you did not get any mafia confirmed don't

My reasoning is it would be foolish to reveal who isn't mafia, since we would lose the game if we didn't nab a mafia member.

---

If we are about to lynch a cit, and the cop knows it, i think it is very important he tell us. As i said, barring a miraculous night save by me, if we lynch a cit today the game is over.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

On another note, I do have a role. It is not mafia. I'm not letting anybody know what it is because it won't help.

At this late in the game, I'm looking at Monty and OGB to speak up. I'm surprised to see the pair of them laying low at this point. Both of them piled on Jack as well, so it fits with my current train of thought.

EDIT: I realize the irony of saying Monty has been rather modest with his post count, right below a Monty post .

EDIT 2: I'd just like to hear everything from both him and OGB at this time. There has to be something we've overlooked.

RE: JAZ - There's a reason why I thought she was the only player that could know JACK's role. I apologize for getting into with Jaz, but there's not much more reason when you know she suspects two confirmed cits and avoids a pile.

Regarding the recent suspicions - I am most suspicious of GAW and I should have checked him this round instead of JAZ due to his non-vote the second round.

Also, I'm not sure at this point LA3 should be getting free passes anymore...he is playing a better game but he's bouncing from suspicion to suspicion a little too much, but that makes me think he might be a cit.

Third, JUN - I'm assuming they killed JAZ for mass confusion purposes and to bandwagon someone (in this case me).

Edit: Because that at least confirms 3 of the 6 cits at the moment. Odds are better than 50/50 to hit with the remaining 7 unknowns.
__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."