quote:

---

Originally posted by Zakman86:
Griselbrand, draw a gazillion cards immediately, win?

Consecrated Sphinx and Jin-Gitaxias have to at least last to get your use out of them.

---

You dont HAVE to draw a gazillion cards and win immediately with Griselbrand. Some people actually use it for fun, or as a really good draw effect. If someone in your group is always casting it and getting his instant win combo, then you ban it within your group. This is something that EDH allows for.

Above is the same logic as Thror suggested. You get my point?

edit:
Btw, I am not saying Griselbrand shouldn't be banned, I am just saying, that logic is flawed if the sole reason TnN isn't banned is because some players will not auto win with it.

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zakman86:
Tooth and Nail, in and of itself, is not degenerate and doesn't lead to unfun gamestates. That's the difference. T&N is a 9-mana double Chord of Calling, basically. Griselbrand is a Bargain/Necro on a stick.

---

And they both yield the same result? Based on your reasoning, same could be said for Tinker.

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

quote:

---

Originally posted by junichi:
You obviously have zero idea what you are talking about if you linked Tooth and Nail with fun. Since when is a 1 card "I win" combo fun?

---

You're kidding, right? So a card that let's you get any 2 creatures and put them into play isn't fun?

Tooth and Nail is not nearly the "I win" that Griselbrand is. Even if an opponent is solely looking to combo with T&N, removal is a possible avenue to stop it. No amount of removal is going to stop Griselbrand from drawing lots and lots and storming out. If you're going to do something degenerate, Griselbrand comes before T&N.

quote:

---

Originally posted by choco man:
You're kidding, right? So a card that let's you get any 2 creatures and put them into play isn't fun?

Tooth and Nail is not nearly the "I win" that Griselbrand is. Even if an opponent is solely looking to combo with T&N, removal is a possible avenue to stop it. No amount of removal is going to stop Griselbrand from drawing lots and lots and storming out. If you're going to do something degenerate, Griselbrand comes before T&N.

Maybe you don't know what you're talking about?

---

Did I say Griselbrand isn't degenerate? Did I ever say TnN is more degenerating than Griselbrand? Can you read?

Just because you can search for a Merfolk of the Pearl Trident and Goblin Balloon Brigade with your TnN, that doesn't make it less broken. If the only way to make TnN fair is to dumb down its use voluntarily by the user, then this card is definitely a ban worthy candidate.

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

__________________
Most References in Massachusetts
80th All-time

quote:

---

Originally posted by Havoc Demon:
The only time Tooth and Nail shouldn't be getting an instant win is when one of the pieces is missing. If you are trying to have fun, you don't play Tooth and Nail at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zakman86:
Disagree. I play Tooth and Nail in a deck that doesn't have an instant I-win combo. I use it to improve my boardstate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Volcanon:
You could just not use the EDH multiplayer banlist as it is quite terrible anyway.

---

Why do you always complain about everything?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Volcanon:
You could just not use the EDH multiplayer banlist as it is quite terrible anyway.

---

theres an offcial edh banlist from wotc? got a link handy? and imo terrageddon is uncool.

__________________
Motl member since November 1, 2000

Your 2008 and 2010 Motl Siskel & Ebert award winner!

34th in refs on Motl!

First in refs in state of Arizona!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
Why do you always complain about everything?

---

I'm not complaining. It's not a good banlist. Go on any edh site and you'll find endless debate over it. There's many, many cards that are much more abusive than banned cards that are perfectly legal on edh.

quote:

---

Originally posted by revenger:
theres an offcial edh banlist from wotc? got a link handy? and imo terrageddon is uncool.

---

http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/resources.aspx?x=magic/rules/100cardsingleton-commander

The following cards are legal for use in decks, but can't be used as commanders:

Braids, Cabal Minion
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
The current banned list for Commander is as follows:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Devonin:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/resources.aspx?x=magic/rules/100cardsingleton-comm ander

The following cards are legal for use in decks, but can't be used as commanders:

Braids, Cabal Minion
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
The current banned list for Commander is as follows:

Balance
Biorhythm
Channel
Coalition Victory
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Fastbond
Gifts Ungiven
Karakas
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Library of Alexandria
Limited Resources
Lion's Eye Diamond
Metalworker
Painter's Servant
Panoptic Mirror
Protean Hulk
Recurring Nightmare
Staff of Domination
Sway of the Stars
Time Vault
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Upheaval
Yawgmoth's Bargain

---

ok- Some of them I completely understand. Emrakul...(Limited Resources! Lmao!)

But some I am confused about.

Sway of the Stars? (It reduces the game to fast or something? I don't know)
Painter's Servant? (um, huh? I knowfor sure someone can and will explain this one on the list)
Metalworker? (there's only one of em...1 in 99 chance you'll draw him in opening hand right peeps?)

__________________
Motl member since November 1, 2000

Your 2008 and 2010 Motl Siskel & Ebert award winner!

34th in refs on Motl!

First in refs in state of Arizona!

quote:

---

Originally posted by junichi:
Can you read?

---

I can read. This is what you posted:

quote:

---

Originally posted by junichi:
You obviously have zero idea what you are talking about if you linked Tooth and Nail with fun. Since when is a 1 card "I win" combo fun?

---

I do have an idea of what I'm talking about because T&N is a fun card.

Maybe you should read a lot. I never posted that you didn't say that Griselbrand isn't degenerate.

Griselbrand is like Panoptic Mirror/Emrakul. No matter what happens, it always turns out really bad.

quote:

---

Originally posted by choco man:
I can read. This is what you posted:

I do have an idea of what I'm talking about because T&N is a fun card.

Maybe you should read a lot. I never posted that you didn't say that Griselbrand isn't degenerate.

Griselbrand is like Panoptic Mirror/Emrakul. No matter what happens, it always turns out really bad.

Tooth and Nail is like Time Stretch. Powerful, yes. But the "no matter what" part isn't the same.

---

Base on your logic, Tinker should be unbanned then, since you are not obligated to search for something degenerating like an early Blightsteel.

edit: Your Panoptic Mirror argument is exactly why you are contradicting yourself. You don't have to imprint a game breaking spell or a time walk effect spell with Panoptic Mirror. A player could use it to imprint Healing Salve, and it would be no where near broken, but they banned the card anyway because it has potential to be degenerating, and people rarely use it to do non broken things, just like Tooth and Nail, where people rarely play it to not win the game with it.

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

quote:

---

Originally posted by Volcanon:
I'm not complaining. It's not a good banlist. Go on any edh site and you'll find endless debate over it.

---

Go to any website and you'll find endless debate over anything. I think Sheldon and the rest of the rules committee do a fine job of things. If the list isn't perfect for you, don't use it. They have to have ONE list to accommodate a million people out there. Surely it cannot be all things to all people.

quote:

---

Originally posted by junichi:
Base on your logic, Tinker should be unbanned then, since you are not obligated to search for something degenerating like an early Blightsteel.

edit: Your Panoptic Mirror argument is exactly why you are contradicting yourself. You don't have to imprint a game breaking spell or a time walk effect spell with Panoptic Mirror. A player could use it to imprint Healing Salve, and it would be no where near broken, but they banned the card anyway because it has potential to be degenerating, and people rarely use it to do non broken things, just like Tooth and Nail, where people rarely play it to not win the game with it.

---

I don't know. But that's one thing we disagree on for sure.

When have you ever seen anyone put Healing Salve on Panoptic Mirror? No one does that. Casual players don't do it, Competitive players don't do it. When it comes to Mirror, even Casual players take infinite turns.

This is the same with Tinker and it's green brother Channel. BOTH Timmy and Spike do insane things with it. You can bet, Timmy ain't getting a mana rock with Tinker.

But when it comes to T&N, Casual players do actually just get in for value very often. And reviewing my games, even Spikes go for value. Even if Spike combos, Kiki+Pestermite gets stopped easily; same for black Mike+Trike. Creatures are naturally more interactive.

Even if T&N and Tinker have the same effect you're pointing to (reaching "I win" status), one costs 3cc+cheap mana rock and the other 9 cc.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jtrade77:
Am I the only who finds it amusing LED is banned but Black Lotus isn't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by revenger:
ok- Some of them I completely understand. Emrakul...(Limited Resources! Lmao!)

But some I am confused about.

Sway of the Stars? (It reduces the game to fast or something? I don't know)
Painter's Servant? (um, huh? I knowfor sure someone can and will explain this one on the list)
Metalworker? (there's only one of em...1 in 99 chance you'll draw him in opening hand right peeps?)

---

__________________
Motl member since November 1, 2000

Your 2008 and 2010 Motl Siskel & Ebert award winner!

34th in refs on Motl!

First in refs in state of Arizona!

quote:

---

Originally posted by revenger:
ok- Some of them I completely understand. Emrakul...(Limited Resources! Lmao!)

But some I am confused about.

Sway of the Stars? (It reduces the game to fast or something? I don't know)
Painter's Servant? (um, huh? I knowfor sure someone can and will explain this one on the list)
Metalworker? (there's only one of em...1 in 99 chance you'll draw him in opening hand right peeps?)

---

Sway the Stars is banned for the same reason they are looking at banning that new red card that makes each player's life total 1. Putting everyone at 7 life after reseting the game is just plain un-fun, especially with painlands, shocklands, fetchlands, etc..

Painter's Servant is broken. This plus any color hate is just bad. Picture making everything a certain color and then wiping the entire board for a player when he doens't play a certain color. It's not what the format is about.

Metalworker in an all artifact deck... the same reason Staff of Domination is banned. The whole concept is to have games that don't end on turn 3. And remember, Workshop is still legal.

__________________
MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - 2007, 2008, and 2009
(My 2008 Nationals)