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Originally posted by Skwirlnutz:
Is it me or is Dolmen Gate almost a staple in Kaalia EDH decks? Am I reading it correctly?

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quote:

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Originally posted by caquaa:
was one of the first few cards I put in mine. Deck was still terrible. Not sure how it could be made better really.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Skwirlnutz:
How is Kaalia terrible? I have a Kaalia deck and it is very good. Unless of course you just put 40 Angels, demons, and dragons and completely depended on Kaalia like a noob.

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quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
Why do ppl talk on banning T&N constantly? And now, Kiki-Jiki.

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Originally posted by caquaa:
because one card combos are fairly boring
kiki-jiki I dunno, I suppose hes mostly used as a combo piece instead of an over powered clone mechanic. He won't get the axe. Plenty of other 2 card combos that are legal.

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Sheldon mentioned KJ in a recent article as deserving of a closer look. He is a combo piece, but he's also a creature. There are so many ways to stop him.

As for T&N, it's a nine mana spell (always entwined) that can win the game. I've cast it as early as turn 5, but I'm sure it can be done earlier. Still, the only complaint I ever have is when people take forever pretending they're not searching for Primeval Titan/Eternal Witness + some other bomb (usually Avenger or Terastodon).

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Originally posted by caquaa:
because one card combos are fairly boring
kiki-jiki I dunno, I suppose hes mostly used as a combo piece instead of an over powered clone mechanic. He won't get the axe. Plenty of other 2 card combos that are legal.

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quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
It's a bit facetious to call it a one-card combo.

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quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
It's a bit facetious to call it a one-card combo.

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Originally posted by stab107:
Technically, it may not be a one card combo but really, for the cost of one card, you can end the game. I think it is fair to look at it under the same scope as one card combos.

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I don't like T&N because it's so repetitive. It's always the same backbreakers that get searched for, often something dumb like terrastrodon and sundering titan in multiplayer, which then leads to a one-sided geddon.

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
And people take way too long to actually resolve it. Seriously, it's like five minutes to search out trike and vampire or whatever.

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Library searching can seriously kill the time it takes to play the game and the "fun" of having a format that's supposed to generate inconsistent draws.

quote:

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
I don't like T&N because it's so repetitive. It's always the same backbreakers that get searched for, often something dumb like terrastrodon and sundering titan in multiplayer, which then leads to a one-sided geddon.

And people take way too long to actually resolve it. Seriously, it's like five minutes to search out trike and vampire or whatever.

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That issue has absolutely nothing to do with T&N itself.

I mean, someone can build a Captain Sisay deck and do the same thing, right?

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Originally posted by choco man:
That issue has absolutely nothing to do with T&N itself.

I mean, someone can build a Captain Sisay deck and do the same thing, right?

When you play a game of standard/modern/vintage/legacy isn't it the exact same thing? You play the exact same game whether you like it or not, because if you build a deck you're building it to do particular things.

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I don't play standard or any of those other formats.

How does TNN *not* lead to repetitive games? You're always going to search for a very small subset of cards that lead to absurd card advantage. EDH is all about not playing the exact same game every time.

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
I don't play standard or any of those other formats.

How does TNN *not* lead to repetitive games? You're always going to search for a very small subset of cards that lead to absurd card advantage. EDH is all about not playing the exact same game every time.

Sisay doesn't put the cards into play. And you have to untap before she can start tutoring stuff for you. And you're forced to play G/W, which isn't really all that strong anyway. I guess she comes in a turn or two faster, though. (Yes, I know TNN costs 9. But this is EDH.)

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While Sisay can be built to be a BS general who just gets "answers" at leat she doesn't win on her own.

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Originally posted by WeedIan:
While Sisay can be built to be a BS general who just gets "answers" at leat she doesn't win on her own.

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Exactly.

And Sisay isn't even good enough to get answers of every kind. The best W/G legendary wrath costs eight and you can't cheat it into play (I think), the better almost-wrath costs seven.

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
Exactly.

And Sisay isn't even good enough to get answers of every kind. The best W/G legendary wrath costs eight and you can't cheat it into play (I think), the better almost-wrath costs seven.

And again, you're stuck with W/G, which isn't as terrible as monored or monoblack, but it's got less busted cards than blue/black.

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only thing i can think of to search for is sigarda and thats bout it. Whats the 7 cc wrath tha's a wrath effect thats legendary that sissy can search for?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
I don't play standard or any of those other formats.

How does TNN *not* lead to repetitive games? You're always going to search for a very small subset of cards that lead to absurd card advantage. EDH is all about not playing the exact same game every time.

Sisay doesn't put the cards into play. And you have to untap before she can start tutoring stuff for you. And you're forced to play G/W, which isn't really all that strong anyway. I guess she comes in a turn or two faster, though. (Yes, I know TNN costs 9. But this is EDH.)

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If "G/W being not as strong a color pair" is a legit point, then how would you feel about T&N being played in a G/W deck?

T&N is just the gun. It's not the shooter.

That EDH is a 40 life format that provides players enough time to create truly amazing board states each and every game. And the best way to tactically achieve that is by ramping. The "Green ramp package" and the "Blue artifact shell" leads to repetitive games where haymakers are normal, not abnormal.

Remove T&N and games will still end the same way with players casting powerful high-cc spells. 9cc builds a board in EDH and rightfully so.

If your point is that T&N is an "I win" card at 9cc, I'd point out that Warp World produces similar outcomes at 8cc while being harder to disrupt with spot removal.

If your point is that T&N has become too dangerous because of an ever increasing card pool with ever powerful creatures, then your corollary must be to ban Kiki-Jiki as well. I would point out that there are many many cards which become increasingly lethal in an ever growing games as well, tribal cards for example.

Still, I think it boils down to one thing which is the root of most of the problems in EDH right now:
The universal adoption of ramp as the basis of most decks.

Ramp isn't a tactic, it's a strategy.

Just like how Primeval Titan is in standard, so are the following cards in EDH:
Kodama's Reach, Sol Ring, Explosive Vegatation, Mana Crypt, Skyshroud Claim, Cultivate, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Coalition Relic, etc.

Primeval Titan isn't part of the deck, it's THE DECK in one card.

Next player goes and destroys the bond part. Genesis wave's for 20 and has to say go.

Next guy plays an inssurection and hammers my friend to my left and kills the player to my right, netting me 70 life.

I somehow topdeck a rune-scarred demon and promptly search for Bond of Agony, paying 70 life, tons of overkill but really, i woulda gained the life back anyway. Fun stuff

quote:

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Originally posted by mattw:
So I play a white black life gain deck and just cause I was bored I played the sanguine bond exquisite blood enchantments with no way to do anything else other than to make everyone attack me I suppose. I have no other cards in play or cards in my hand.

Next player goes and destroys the bond part. Genesis wave's for 20 and has to say go.

Next guy plays an inssurection and hammers my friend to my left and kills the player to my right, netting me 70 life.

I somehow topdeck a rune-scarred demon and promptly search for Bond of Agony, paying 70 life, tons of overkill but really, i woulda gained the life back anyway. Fun stuff

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quote:

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Originally posted by Undomian:
If you had access to 70 mana you can't really blame your opponents for trying to kill you.

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I have a feeling the X mana cost was not paid.

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