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Author
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Topic: Need a Ruling? .. Come on in!.. Pt. 7 pls post yer questions in here!
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Laton
Member
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posted June 11, 2001 05:37 AM
 
My opponent has a Nettling Imp in play, and on my turn, he uses its' ability to force one of my creatures to attack. In response, I cast Boomerang to return the Imp to his hand.Is the creature that the Imp targeted to force to attack still required to attack in my turn? I know in 5th edition rules, the creature would still have to attack, since the ability of the Imp was paid for already(by tapping), so you could remove the Imp from play, but that wouldn't stop the Imp's ability from resolving. Is this the same in 6th edition rules? Thanks.
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Drengar
Member
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posted June 11, 2001 07:54 AM
Laton - Well if you'd boomerang the creature that had to attack it would have effect only the imp wont have effect cuz the abbil is already triggerd and put on the stackso it wont have any effect to boomerang the imp __________________
For trading you can always contact me at my mail: Drengar@hotmail.com
i also use MSNand icq: 23490287 Fire, Ice, Wind and Water, all just basic - Drengar , Dark Wizard - Judge in Training
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trax72
Member
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posted June 11, 2001 10:30 AM
Hmm, lots of messages all of a sudden and unfortunately alot of wrong answers. This doesn't exactly do much for the credibility of this post. So please don't respond unless you're sure of your answers and checked them with the rulebook/errata/rulings!  Drengar's summary was correct, except for the fact that you can't respond again when the color for Wash Out is chosen since that happens in the middle of resolution. Also, you don't target a source, you pick one; and it's phasing, not fading. Nitpicking a bit, I know, but it's best to be accurate to avoid confusion =) MJ9699: It doesn't create an endless loop, rpitcher was almost right. Here's what happens: CoB is tapped - 1 damage to you is replaced by 1 damage to the Mogg Maniac due to Pariah - this triggers both Repercussion and the Mogg Maniac's ability - StateBased Effects are checked and the Maniac dies, immediately afterwards the Pariah goes to the graveyard - the triggered abilities go on the stack and when they resolve you take 1 damage and target player (presumably opponent) takes 1 damage from the Mogg Maniac's ability.
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Laton
Member
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posted June 11, 2001 11:23 AM
Drengar - Okay, I accept your ruling on my Nettling Imp question. I looked up the ruling, but in doing so, I've found two rules that seem to contradict one another, with regards to my question. Here they are:402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of its source (the card on which it's printed). Destruction or removal of the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some abilities make a source do something (for example, "Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player.") rather than the ability do the something directly. In these cases anything that cares about characteristics of the source will check the source's characteristics at the ability's resolution or the last known characteristics if the source is no longer in play.
217.8. Whenever a card moves from one zone to another, it is treated as a new copy of that card (effects connected to its previous existence expire) with the exception that effects editing a spell in the stack will continue to apply to the permanent that spell becomes.
How can removal of a source (as stated in 402.6) not affect it's ability, when Rule 217.8 states that all effects connected with a permanent expire when it moves to a different zone(in this case, from in play to my opponent's hand)? I'm really confused here, please clarify for me.
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Drengar
Member
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posted June 11, 2001 11:52 AM
after edit:well 2nd rule is for changing owner example: if you have a worship in play and the opponent gains control of it
the connection to you is gone and a new one with your opponent is set up
if you still dont understand contact me otherwise
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Drengar on June 11, 2001]
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trax72
Member
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posted June 11, 2001 01:58 PM
That's not a proper example, Drengar, since 217.8 is talking about a card changing zones - NOT a card changing controller or owner (which isn't even possible barring ante cards). Here's one I hope clarifies it a bit (it's quite hard to think of a good example):Let's say you have a kickered Kavu Titan in play which is attacking. The opponent uses Parallax Wave to RFG it. Then when the Wave leaves play the Titan returns to play, but -without- the counters, untapped instead of tapped and with summoning sickness. It has no memory of its previous existence, it's an entirely new copy. Hope this helps!
[Edited 1 times, lastly by trax72 on June 11, 2001]
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Laton
Member
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posted June 11, 2001 06:57 PM
Trax72 - I understand your example, but my point is that the two rules I listed above seem to contradict one another. Let's use your example, but instead of a Kavu Titan, let's use a Thrashing Wumpus. Let's say that I activate the ability of the Wumpus once, and in response you Parallax Wave it. When the stack resolves, does the Wumpus's ability still take effect? According to rule 402.6 it would, but according to rule 217.8 it wouldn't, since the card changed zones, and all effects of that card expire.So, which is correct?
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Selvaxri
Member
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posted June 11, 2001 08:08 PM
i have Dual Nature in play, and i play Penumbra Kavu (and i get a penumbra kavu clone). My opponent kills the original Kavu; hence killing the clone. Do i get 1 black penumbra kavu or two?i play a Kavu Monarch and i sacrifice a Penumbra Kavu to Dark Triumph. Does the monarch get a +1/+1 when the black penumbra Kavu comes into play?
lmk 
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Sasquatch
New Member
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posted June 11, 2001 08:17 PM
Selaxri on your first question I think you get 2 tokenson number 2 I think it gets the counter just because I can't think of a good argument for why not. __________________
Destiny,chance,fate,fortune-they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures.
- Gerrard of the Weatherlight
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Drengar
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 04:36 AM
quote:
Originally posted by trax72:
That's not a proper example, Drengar, since 217.8 is talking about a card changing zones - NOT a card changing controller or owner (which isn't even possible barring ante cards). Here's one I hope clarifies it a bit (it's quite hard to think of a good example):Let's say you have a kickered Kavu Titan in play which is attacking. The opponent uses Parallax Wave to RFG it. Then when the Wave leaves play the Titan returns to play, but -without- the counters, untapped instead of tapped and with summoning sickness. It has no memory of its previous existence, it's an entirely new copy. Hope this helps!
so if you change it from controler it doesnt change any effect so i control a worship that prevents the opponent from die-ing
it ws just an example ofcourz it also works if you remove it with a paralex wave
[Edited 1 times, lastly by Drengar on June 12, 2001]
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Drengar
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 04:37 AM
oh and traxAnte is FORBIDDEN read the rules __________________
For trading you can always contact me at my mail: Drengar@hotmail.com
i also use MSNand icq: 23490287 Fire, Ice, Wind and Water, all just basic - Drengar , Dark Wizard - Judge in Training
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JRockerfan
New Member
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posted June 12, 2001 04:39 AM
What exactly are dual lands?
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JRockerfan
New Member
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posted June 12, 2001 04:41 AM
this isn't very helpful
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Drengar
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 04:42 AM
JRockerfan - Dual lands are land that can produce 2 kinds of colorsthe orginal dual lands come from AL-UNL examples are:
savanah
tropical island
vulcanic island
taiga
bayou
and all the others __________________
For trading you can always contact me at my mail: Drengar@hotmail.com
i also use MSNand icq: 23490287 Fire, Ice, Wind and Water, all just basic - Drengar , Dark Wizard - Judge in Training
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Drengar
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 05:23 AM
Selvaxri - Correct awnser is:
you get 1 tokencuz dual nature only dubbles CREATURES and tokens dont count as creatures same with deranged hermit you would have 16 tokens from 1 deranged hermit that's TO good to be true
__________________
For trading you can always contact me at my mail: Drengar@hotmail.com
i also use MSNand icq: 23490287 Fire, Ice, Wind and Water, all just basic - Drengar , Dark Wizard - Judge in Training
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trax72
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 10:49 AM
Laton: It does seem a little confusing, but 217.8 is referring to effects that affect the permanent that changed zones, not effects that had that permanent as a source. So they don't really contradict eachother. Another example: Your Simian Grunts (2G, echo, can play as instant) is blocked by a Thicket Basilisk. This triggers the Basilisk's ability. You then Boomerang the Grunts. This resolves, then you play the Grunts again and it comes into play. Then at the end of combat the Basilisk's triggered ability resolves, but it won't affect the new Simian Grunts since it's a new copy.Drengar: If you take over control of a Worship from an opponent, it -will- work for you instead. It has nothing to do with 217.8 though. Oh, and Ante is obsolete and not allowed at official tournaments, but it's not forbidden.
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Drengar
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 10:53 AM
Trax trax trax mancalm down it was just a simple example New rules say that " offically " there are no bets allowd for the outcome of a game but only on tourny's that rule is enforced anyway i hope Laton is explained enough now if not plz tell us so
oh and btw the worship does trigger again so it was a okay exaple it moves a zone from his in play to my in play
__________________
For trading you can always contact me at my mail: Drengar@hotmail.com
i also use MSNand icq: 23490287 Fire, Ice, Wind and Water, all just basic - Drengar , Dark Wizard - Judge in Training
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trax72
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 11:06 AM
Selvaxri: You only get 1 token because only the real Penumbra Kavu is put in the graveyard. The other one is RFG'd because of Dual Nature's 2nd ability, and naturally that doesn't trigger the Penumbra Kavu copy's ability. Drengar, I think you meant to say "Dual Nature only triggers on creature CARDS, not creature tokens". 
Oh, and as for the 2nd question, yes the Kavu Monarch will get a +1/+1 token.Drengar: I'm always calm, hehe  But changing control still doesn't mean the card changes zones, it's still in the "In Play" zone. Z.1.2 - Each player has their own version of each zone, with the exception
of the In Play and Stack zones, which are shared by all players.
[CompRules 99/04/23]
[Edited 1 times, lastly by trax72 on June 12, 2001]
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Drengar
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 11:11 AM
okay true you got me on that oneand yes when i say creatures i mean creature cards if it would dubble tokens it wou;d create a endless loop for itself __________________
For trading you can always contact me at my mail: Drengar@hotmail.com
i also use MSNand icq: 23490287 Fire, Ice, Wind and Water, all just basic - Drengar , Dark Wizard - Judge in Training
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Vegeta19
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 04:16 PM
Okay say my opponent has 2 Phyrexian Scutas out and I have an Unnatural Selection in play. Now if I pay 1, activate Unnatural Selection's ability and make one of his Scutas a Legend does the other Scuta die?__________________
"I don't know what words I can say the wind has a way to talk to me.
Flowers sleep a silent lulaby, I pray for reply, I'm ready.
Quiet day..calms me oh serenity.
Someone..Please..tell me Oh what is it they say, maybe I will know one day.
-Melphina's Song, "Outlaw Star"
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Gombies
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 07:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Drengar:
Okay good job all
although a judge correcting another and so on isnt very good is it
anyway correct awnsers: [b]Gombies - You play washout
he / she can react
you choose color
he / she can react again [[/B]
So he/she(in this case, he. I don't think in magic history that many girls would go to the JSS)
Are you sure he can react again? that is not what that judge told me not like it would have mattered. The judge told me since it resolved already or something, he cannot respond to it anymore
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killjoy72
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 07:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gombies:
So he/she(in this case, he. I don't think in magic history that many girls would go to the JSS)
Are you sure he can react again? that is not what that judge told me not like it would have mattered. The judge told me since it resolved already or something, he cannot respond to it anymore
Nope, if you read trax's post, he explicitly states you can't react again since it's in the middle of resolution. quote:
Drengar's summary was correct, except for the fact that you can't respond again when the color for Wash Out is chosen since that happens in the middle of resolution.
And Dregnar, please refrain from posting on here since you haven't been getting answers right, nor are you providing any pertinent evidence to support your claims.
__________________
"Must not all things at the last be swallowed up in death?"--Plato"All men make mistakes. But a good man yields when he knows his course is wrong, and repairs the evil. The only crime is pride."--Sophocles
[Edited 1 times, lastly by killjoy72 on June 12, 2001]
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Tom
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 09:23 PM
I have a powerstone minefield question.
Does protection from red or white stop creatures from taking the two damage. My guess is no, as the spell does not target the creature it just says "whenever a creature attacks or blocks, powerstone minefield does two damage to it", but I could be wrong.
Thanks for the help in advance By the way it is very confusing to have 3 or 4 people answering the same question differently. I just read 9 pages to get here and I still am not sure on the wash-out question.
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magicmaster5000
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 09:52 PM
If I played a Goblin Game and both me and the other player grab the smae object at the same time, who gets it?! Hehe. Should we flip a coin or just fight it out right there? Help me out with this!__________________
e-mail: derangeddaveii@hotmail.com
If you judged me, would it make me any less of than what I am? If you assumed I would fail, would it affect my outcome? If you called me a loser, would it change my life? If you knew what you were talking about, would I be writing this?
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Gombies
Member
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posted June 12, 2001 10:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by magicmaster5000:
If I played a Goblin Game and both me and the other player grab the smae object at the same time, who gets it?! Hehe. Should we flip a coin or just fight it out right there? Help me out with this!
omg, you should get the game disqualification for playing goblin game in your deck
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