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Author Topic:   Need a Ruling?.. Come on in... part 8, the quest for mo answers
flam flawless
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posted August 30, 2001 09:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for flam flawless   Click Here to Email flam flawless     
I have a question that we've not determined the answer for...

I have a shifting sky in play naming red. I also have a crimson acolyte and a southern paladin out. My opponent has a monger on the table and attacks.

Can I:
A) destroy the monger with the paladin after he changes the color to blue?
B) block the monger with the crimson acolyte and not have it take lethal damage after he changed the color of the monger to blue?

I say that the shifting sky makes the monger both blue and red, and therefore can be both destroyed and blocked, but I wanted to know a judge's ruling on it.

Thanks

gzeiger
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posted August 31, 2001 12:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gzeiger   Click Here to Email gzeiger     
quote:
Originally posted by moxdiamd:
Can a mishras factory be turned into a creature and attack the turn in comes into play? I say no, a friend says yes because it comes into play as a land.

Mishra's Factory can tap for mana, or to give an assembly worker a bonus, the turn it comes into play. However as soon as it becomes a creature it will be subject to the summoning sickness rule. All permanents have summoning sickness the turn they come into play, but only creatures are affected by it.

quote:
Originally posted by jacobsme:

Question.
Artifact Mutation.
Say I mutate my opponents artifact.
Who gets the tokens?
This has been causing a few arguements.

The controller of the effect (The caster of Artifact Mutation) gets the tokens. Compare the wording of Artifact Mutation with Afterlife:
Destroy target creature. It's controller puts a 1/1 white Spirit token into play.

flam flawless

Changing a permanent's characteristics overwrites all earlier versions of a characteristic. The Monger's ability will make it a blue creature, not a red/blue one. Likewise Unnatural Selection actually changes a creature type rather than merely adding an additional type.


Ncromonitor
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posted August 31, 2001 12:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ncromonitor     
Can you play a Crosis' Catacombs, tap it for mana, then sacrifice it to pay the kicker cost of Rushing River before the "return a non-lair land to your hand or sacrifice Crosis' Catacombs" resolves? If you do that, do you still have to return a land to your hand, since you obviously can't sacrifice the Catacombs anymore?


babygirlsam
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posted August 31, 2001 05:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for babygirlsam   Click Here to Email babygirlsam     
All right Coolio
I PMed you but haven't gotten an answer so I will make my question public. Who can I send my cards to to have signatures authenticated. I just got some RK Post, Edward Beard, Jr. and Terese Nielson cards and the signatures on all the cards look suspiciously alike. PLEASE help me......
Thanks,
Samantha

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phoenix
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posted August 31, 2001 08:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for phoenix   Click Here to Email phoenix     
If I try to Fire a bop and elf can the opponent tap them for mana? I think so but not 100% sure

Ice also im unsure on. If I ice a land/creature can they tap it for mana/attack in response (if its there turn for the second half)

gzeiger
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posted August 31, 2001 01:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gzeiger   Click Here to Email gzeiger     
quote:
Originally posted by Ncromonitor:
Can you play a Crosis' Catacombs, tap it for mana, then sacrifice it to pay the kicker cost of Rushing River before the "return a non-lair land to your hand or sacrifice Crosis' Catacombs" resolves? If you do that, do you still have to return a land to your hand, since you obviously can't sacrifice the Catacombs anymore?

The Lairs have a triggered ability, worded "when this comes into play..." Triggered abilities use the stack, which means you can respond to them. Everything you described is legal.

I don't know what happens if you sacrifice the lair before the ability resolves. Where's Juss?


phoenix
You always have an opportunity to respond to a spell. Mana could be produced before either half of Fire/Ice resolves (no matter whose turn it is, incidentally).


meyouus
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posted August 31, 2001 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for meyouus   Click Here to Email meyouus     
quote:
Originally posted by gzeiger:
The Lairs have a triggered ability, worded "when this comes into play..." Triggered abilities use the stack, which means you can respond to them. Everything you described is legal.

I don't know what happens if you sacrifice the lair before the ability resolves. Where's Juss?



If you don't want to unsummon a land, you can play this card then tap it for mana before the comes into play ability resolves. You may then choose to sacrifice it instead of unsummoning a land.

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Archreaper
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posted August 31, 2001 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Archreaper   Click Here to Email Archreaper     
What happens if you have 2 Opalescence and 1 Humility in play? I'm guessing the world falls into an endless void, but that's just me...

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phoenix
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posted August 31, 2001 03:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for phoenix   Click Here to Email phoenix     
ok similar question to my last, I can tap a creature that is attacking right? Or is the correct way to do it by saying once you announce combat phase I tap your spectral lynx. ?


gzeiger
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posted September 01, 2001 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gzeiger   Click Here to Email gzeiger     
Phoenix The correct play is to tap the creature before attackers are declared. If someone just taps them and simultaneously announces the attack you are within your rights to ask him to back up.

Archreaper The consensus at Beyond Dominia was that these situations call for the Lead Pipe Rule, which works as follows: Any players whose deck contains both Opalescence and Humility, or Volrath's Shapeshifter at all, must be able to explain clearly and concisely all rules pertaining to these cards, or be beaten with lead piping.

I don't know the real answer to your question, and it's probably better not to ask.

RPGfreak17
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posted September 02, 2001 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RPGfreak17   Click Here to Email RPGfreak17     
i'm pretty sure this has been asked before, but i haven't seen it yet.

Can a creature regenerate from a Vindicate?

~RPGfreak17

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Inzane
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posted September 02, 2001 05:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Inzane   Click Here to Email Inzane     
quote:
Originally posted by RPGfreak17:
i'm pretty sure this has been asked before, but i haven't seen it yet.

Can a creature regenerate from a Vindicate?

~RPGfreak17



Vindicate
Color: Multi
Type: Sorcery
Cost: 1WB
Sets: AP(R)
Text(AP): Destroy target permanent.

Yep, it can regenerate...if it couldn't, there would be the text "It can't be regenerated" attatched like in terminate



Mike, The Igniter
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posted September 02, 2001 08:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike, The Igniter   Click Here to Email Mike, The Igniter     
If i have an unnatural selection in play if i pay 2 to turn both of his llanowar elves into legends then which one(s) will die if any.


phoenix
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posted September 02, 2001 09:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for phoenix   Click Here to Email phoenix     
Im not 110% sure but I believe that they both die as both legends techincally entered at the same time.


blurredvision
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posted September 02, 2001 09:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for blurredvision   Click Here to Email blurredvision     
the one you turned into a legend second.

you put one as a legend on the stack.

that one resolves.

you put the other one on the stack.

it checks to see if there are any more, there are, it dies.

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maxbishop
unregistered
posted September 03, 2001 06:49 AM           
ok, i haven't seen this one posted yet.
if i have the opposition-orb lock down, and there is a flag bearer just put into play by some means, does this mean that my lock is now broken?
meaning, do i have to keep targeting the flagbearer with the oppositions ability over and over again? or just the first time to tap it? will i ever get to target my static orb to turn it off?
i know that if i boomerang it (the flagbearer) then its all good, but still.



gzeiger
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posted September 03, 2001 10:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gzeiger   Click Here to Email gzeiger     
As long as the Flagbearer is in play you will have to target it with Opposition, because it is a legal target for the ability whether it is tapped or not.


SuperJimmy
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posted September 03, 2001 10:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SuperJimmy   Click Here to Email SuperJimmy     
I just realized that I didn't know the answer to this. Blastoderm says it can't be the target of spells or abilities right? So that is only true if it is in play...so if it's being played, it can be countered right?


Inzane
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posted September 03, 2001 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Inzane   Click Here to Email Inzane     
quote:
Originally posted by SuperJimmy:
I just realized that I didn't know the answer to this. Blastoderm says it can't be the target of spells or abilities right? So that is only true if it is in play...so if it's being played, it can be countered right?

The ability takes place as soon as it successfully resolves, hence, it can be countered, since countering a spell means it hasn't resolved.

trax72
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posted September 04, 2001 09:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for trax72     
Archreaper: I remember reading that lead piping rule aswell.. But the actual answer is that you apply all effects in timestamp order because this particular combination causes a dependency loop.

418.5c Whenever one effect depends on another, the independent one is applied first. If several dependent effects form a loop, or if none depends on another, they're applied in "timestamp order."

gzeiger
Member
posted September 04, 2001 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gzeiger   Click Here to Email gzeiger     
I could have told him that, Trax but what does it mean?

Opalescence is in play. Humility comes into play. Humility is a creature. Humility has not abilities. The question that seems interesting is whether Humility's ability was applied to all other creatures at the same time that it was applied to itself. So do I have a 1/1 critter named Humility and some other guys who are what they say they are, or do I have a whole lot of 1/1 guys with no abilities?

The reverse situation, fortunately, is clear. Humility is in play. Creatures have no abilities. Opalescence is cast and Humility is a creature, but it retains its ability while all other creatures still have no abilities.

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trax72
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posted September 05, 2001 02:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for trax72     
*sigh* Okay so I was too lazy to write out the long answer.. Sorry gzeiger, I'm afraid I'll have to correct you. Here goes

No matter what order the timestamps for Humility and Opalescence are, they will always be applied in the order Opalescence - Humility. The reason is because Humility depends on Opalescence; Opalescence can turn things into creatures which allows Humility to affect them. So in that situation you will always have a bunch of normal 1/1's alongside enchantment 1/1's (including Humility itself).

EDIT: Inserted ruling

* If one Opalescence and Humility are in play, then Opalescense turns Humility into a 4/4 creature, then Humility turns itself into a 1/1 creature with no abilities. Yes, this is counter-intuitive since Humility no longer has the ability to remove abilities, but this is the outcome. The timing rules for the interaction of continuous effects say you apply them in this order and you never loop back to see if that application would change things. [D'Angelo 1999/05/01]

Now if there's *another* Opalescence in play (which was the original question), this will cause a dependency loop because Humility will be able to affect it now aswell. So in this case everything is applied in timestamp order no matter how strange the result is. Example: Timestamp order is Hu - Op - Op, results in all global enchantments as creatures with p/t equal to their CMC. Example: Timestamp order is Op - Hu - Op, results in all global enchantments except the first Op being 1/1 enchantment creatures.

From a FAQ (looks like I was correct with my examples ;-):
With the order Op, Op, Hu: All enchantments (including both Ops and Hu)
are 1/1 no-abilities.
With the order Op, Hu, Op: All enchantments except the first Op are 1/1
no-abilities. The first Op is still an enchantment.
With the order Hu, Op, Op: All creatures are 1/1 no-abilities. All
enchantments are normal X/X enchantment creatures with abilities.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by trax72 on September 05, 2001]


gzeiger
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posted September 08, 2001 11:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gzeiger   Click Here to Email gzeiger     
This post seems to need an up, as there are posts sprouting up with individual questions


yip_boy
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posted September 09, 2001 08:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for yip_boy   Click Here to Email yip_boy     
Probably a question you solve EVERY SINGLE day, but here it is:

**btw, these are examples, Id appreciate if the ruling was an "overall" kinda ruling.

instants VS instants: if both me and opponent are at 3, I played lightning bolt, and he plays lightning bolt, what happens.

instants vs counters: we're both at 3, and I undermine a rage. What happens?

Instants vs abilities: I rishadan port a land in response to an icing(from fire/ice) on my port. What happens.

Last rule: I only have an ice age rulebook, and it says sorceries can only be played in the main phase. Is this true?

thanks guys
-yip_boy

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gzeiger
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posted September 09, 2001 12:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gzeiger   Click Here to Email gzeiger     
Sorceries can only be played during the main phase with an empty stack.

Whenever a spell is played in response to another spell, it is added to "the stack." When neither player wants to play another spell of effect, the last one played resolves.

With regard to your examples, the second guy to play Lightning Bolt wins the game, as does the caster of Undermine, because these spells resolve before the cards they were responding to.

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