|
Author
|
Topic: Need a Ruling?.. Come on in!.. #9-Questions go here
|
Redlimit
Member
|
posted February 22, 2002 11:59 AM
 
No. Kickers can only be played when the card comes into play when you cast it from your hand.
|
Clasic Rock Magic
Member
|
posted February 22, 2002 01:39 PM
Here's a mind bender:this is all about a deck i'm thinking about that has to do with recycle. I have 2 conflicts.. 1)elfhame sanctuary and the recycle:
Can you use the elfhame's ability, thereby skiping your draw phase that you already are missing???
2)recycle and library of lang:
Which comment about hand size takes priority, or do they just cancel each other out??? __________________
A rational person adapts himself to fit with the world. An irrational person persistantly tries to adapt the world to fit himself. Therefore, all progress is due to the irrational person.Yo Quiero Kormus Bell In the pursuit of Rock 'n' Roll
|
Maxaramus
Member
|
posted February 22, 2002 01:55 PM
1) you can still use elfhame's ability2) You would ignore recycle's discard effect because you skip your discard phase __________________
You should learn to be more aggressive.
You're right, you're absolutely right.
You should also learn to stand up for yourself.
Man, you're right, absolutely right.
You aren't listening to me are you
Man, wow, you're absolutely right
|
trax72
Member
|
posted February 25, 2002 06:48 AM
Actually, you don't skip any step or phase (there isn't a discard step/phase anymore, but the cleanup step). This combination still works though, Library of Leng says you don't have a maximum hand size, which overrules the 2 card max hand size from Recycle.
|
gzeiger
Member
|
posted February 25, 2002 04:47 PM
Trax, what do you think about this?Divert
U
Instant
Change the target of target spell with a single target unless that spell's controller pays {2}. Violent Eruption
1RRR
Instant
Violent Eruption deals 4 damage, divided as you choose, among any number of target creatures and/or players.
Madness 1RR If Violent Eruption is targetting one creature or player, can it be Diverted to multiple targets? __________________
DCI certified Level 1 judge
gzeiger@hotmail.com
|
da-odd-templar
Member
|
posted February 25, 2002 04:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gzeiger:
Trax, what do you think about this?Divert
U
Instant
Change the target of target spell with a single target unless that spell's controller pays {2}. Violent Eruption
1RRR
Instant
Violent Eruption deals 4 damage, divided as you choose, among any number of target creatures and/or players.
Madness 1RR If Violent Eruption is targetting one creature or player, can it be Diverted to multiple targets?
A very intriguing question, I would also like to know this 
__________________
Stinky cheese is still cheese.Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Stephen Wright Rice Cube - The next Azn Sensation!
|
Twig
Member
|
posted February 25, 2002 06:42 PM
This is my first time checking out this forum... it's a very cool idea! I really appreciate the Judges who are willing to share their factual information on rulings. As for me, I do sometimes run accross some mind-benders that I just can't figure out. Here's a couple... depending on the responces, I may have more later. I thank any of you that can help me and other MOTL users! My questions...1) Illuminate... If I pay both kicker costs to Illuminate and in responce to me announcing Illuminate my opponent Swords to Plowshares the only creature in play, what happens? Do the kickers only resolve if the main spell has a target, or does the fact that the target was legal when I announced the spell allow for the kickers to still resolve? How would this work with an untapped Mother of Ruins in play? 2) Mirrari / Irridescent Angel Would Irridescent Angel go "bye-bye" if I were to copy a Terminate or similar spell with Mirrari and target the Angel with the copy? 3) Lifeline I've always wondered about this... how would the end of turn sequence work in current DCI rulings if I play a Ball Lightning with a Pandemondium and a Lifeline in play? Is this an "infinate loop of death and destruction  "? 4) Sylvan Library / Island Sanctuary Is it possible to decline drawing both
"extra" Sylvan Library cards to activate the Island Sanctuary (instead of just declining to draw a card, I decline to draw two), thus allowing me not have to discard 2 cards to answer the second part of Sylvan Library? The effect I want is to be able to still draw my normal 1 card per turn and have the effect of the Island Sanctuary (I don't want to give my opponent card advantage using Howling Mine instead of Sylvan Library). Please e-mail me, in addition to posting any responces. Thanks again!! __________________
"Set the demons free and watch 'em fly!" -Gene Simmons, KISS
|
Maxaramus
Member
|
posted February 25, 2002 07:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by trax72:
Actually, you don't skip any step or phase (there isn't a discard step/phase anymore, but the cleanup step).
really? wow, I gotta read the rulebook again, being old sux  __________________
Don't eat cigarettes
Smoke all your greens
Don't do school
Stay in drugsI need work!
-Mr. T
|
HanSolo6385
Member
|
posted February 25, 2002 07:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Twig:
1) Illuminate... If I pay both kicker costs to Illuminate and in responce to me announcing Illuminate my opponent Swords to Plowshares the only creature in play, what happens? Do the kickers only resolve if the main spell has a target, or does the fact that the target was legal when I announced the spell allow for the kickers to still resolve? How would this work with an untapped Mother of Ruins in play?
Kicker costs are additional costs to the designated spell. If the original spell does not have a legal target, the spell fizzles. The kicker costs do not go into affect unless there is a legal target for the actual spell. quote:
2) Mirrari / Irridescent AngelWould Irridescent Angel go "bye-bye" if I were to copy a Terminate or similar spell with Mirrari and target the Angel with the copy?
No, Mirari is not doing the targeting for the copied spell. Mirari only places a copy of the spell on the stack. E.4.4 - A copy card does not keep any of its own characteristics (see Rule K.6) unless otherwise stated on the card. [CompRules 2001/07/23 - 503.9] This means it assumes the name, color, mana cost, and other characteristics. __________________
HÅñ§¤£¤6⅜5
Snow King, Ruler of all Penguins!AIM Handle:SURFNSKI4REAL King Woopywoopy of the Penguin Clan The more you know, the more you know you don't know. - Socrates
|
trax72
Member
|
posted February 26, 2002 01:44 AM
gzeiger: Once Violent Eruption is on the stack with a single target, it can be targetted by Divert. But Divert can only change that single target to another single target, it's not able to change the number of targets just because Violent Eruption is able to target multiple creatures/players. Selecting multiple targets and dividing the damage among these targets is something that can only be done during the announcement of a spell.Twig: 1. If all targets of a spell or ability are illegal when it resolves, it is countered on resolution and none of its effects happen. Giving a targetted creature protection with Mother of Runes is also a way to make a target illegal. 2. A spell copied by Mirari still has the same colors as its original, so it still won't be able to target Iridescent Angel. 3. It's not really an infinite loop, this is what would happen: You play Ball Lightning triggering Pandemonium, and at end of turn Ball Lightning triggers and you sac it, which in turn triggers Lifeline if there's another creature in play. So Ball Lightning will come back at end of turn, but this will wait until the end of the next turn (your opponent's) since end of turn triggers have already been put on the stack. BL back into play then, triggers Pandemonium, its own trigger to sac it happens at the end of your turn etc. 4. Since you can use Island Sanctuary's replacement effect on any draw that occurs during the draw step, yes you can do that, and for each draw. However, once you've used it, Sylvan Library's secondary effect looks for any cards DRAWN this turn so it will then apply to your regular draw and you'll have to pay 4 life to keep it.
|
Twig
Member
|
posted February 26, 2002 02:40 PM
Reply to trax72:Sylvan Library / Island Sanctuary-
Since I'm declining to draw both cards from the Sylvan Library with the Island Sanctuary's replacement effect (as you said is possible), why would I have to answer the 2nd part of Sylvan Library? In other words, if I never draw the extra cards for the Library (I instead skip them to the Island Sanctuary...), why would I have to pay the 4 life to keep my regularly drawn card? Illuminate-
Are you guys (trax72 & HanSolo6385) both sure about what you said regarding Illuminate? It seems to me that the kickers are all part of the same spell... and once that spell and its effects are put onto the stack, they can't be removed (except by counter-magic). Obviously, the damage to the creature would "fizzle", but why would the damage to the opponent and my card drawing be removed from the stack? The wording on the card states "If you paid the -whatever- kicker cost, -whatever effect happens-. The wording is NOT "If Illuminate deals X damage to target creature, then -whatever kicked costs take effect-. Wait a second, would this be correct (what HanSolo6385 said just sort-of clicked)... Since the first part of the spell no longer has a legal target, the spell is countered? Is that the new wording on what used to be fizzle? If that is the case, then I understand why the kicked effects are lost. Along similar lines of my earlier Mirrari question, what about a spell that is copied by Mirrari... what happens when the original is countered? For practicalities sake, I realize that the copy is most likely not supposed to happen. I'd like to know why. If Mirrari does, in fact, put a copy of a spell onto the stack, then the copy should no longer need the original spell to retain it's "realness" as a spell. Kind of like Clone doesn't need the original creature to remain in play in order to retain the likness of the original creature. Fork works similarly too, right? Do I make sense? Could someone try to explain if and why a copied Mirrari spell would go away if the original spell is countered? Thanks for your earlier replies, HanSolo6385 & trax72. I also thank anyone in advance for helping me understand these issues. Talk to ya later... __________________
"Set the demons free and watch 'em fly!" -Gene Simmons, KISS
|
gzeiger
Member
|
posted February 26, 2002 03:47 PM
Island Sanctuary reads:
quote:
At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.
During your draw step, you first place all triggers generated by a permanent you control on the stack (this is where Sylvan activates), then triggers controlled by your opponent, and finally the trigger created by a game rule (your normal draw).
quote:
Comp Rules 304.1. As the draw step begins, any abilities that trigger at the beginning of the draw step go on the
stack. (Draw-step-triggered abilities use the phrase "At the beginning of your draw step" or a similar wording; see rule 404, "Triggered Abilities.") Then the draw step action—the active player drawing a card—goes on the stack. This action is a triggered ability, but it isn't controlled by either player. It simply goes on the stack on top of all abilities players control that trigger at the beginning of the draw step. Then the active player gets priority, and players may play spells and abilities.
Since the normal draw is on top of the stack, it resolves first, then Sylvan's ability resolves. Looking back at the card's wording, you'll see it doesn't ask you to choose cards drawn with Sylvan Library, but rather to choose any cards drawn this turn, which includes your normally drawn card already in your hand. Since you're forced to choose that card, you then have to make the choice between paying four life and returning it to your deck.Illuminate: A targeted spell that has no legal target upon resolution is countered.
quote:
Comp Rules 413. Resolving Spells and Abilities.413.2a If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that's removed from play, or from the zone designated by the spell or ability, is illegal. A target may also become illegal if its characteristics changed since the spell or ability was played or if an effect changed the wording of the spell or ability. If all targets are now illegal, the spell or ability is countered.
The spell doesn't just fail to affect the target; the entire spell is countered, and the kickers, as you said, are a part of the same spell.Mirari's ability is not targeted; it will not be countered because the original spell gets countered. As long as you pay three mana, you get a copy of the spell as it last existed before leaving the stack.
quote:
Comp Rules 413.2f If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures in play), the answer is determined when the effect is applied. The effect uses the current information of a specific permanent if that permanent is still in play, or of a specific card in the stated zone; otherwise, the effect uses the last known information the card or permanent had before leaving that zone.
Fork, however, is targeted, and will be countered as it tries to resolve if its target is no longer there. Compare the wordings:
Fork reads
quote:
Put a copy of target instant or sorcery spell onto the stack, except that it copies Fork's color and you may choose new targets for the copy.
Mirari reads
quote:
Whenever you play an instant or sorcery spell, you may pay {3}. If you do, put a copy of that spell onto the stack. You may choose new targets for the copy.
You can find a copy of the rules I'm quoting at www.crystalkeep.com/magic. Some of the other references Coolio posted in the original topic are also useful, depending what you're trying to find. __________________
DCI certified Level 1 judge
gzeiger@hotmail.com
|
Twig
Member
|
posted February 26, 2002 06:26 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------With Island Sanctuary, I am declining to draw the cards offered by Sylvan Library. Therefore, the "If you do" trigger in Sylvan Library is not triggered... right? Therefore, the stack goes like this... I decline drawing 2 cards from Sylvan Library, triggering the Island Sanctuary twice (this does not trigger Sylvan Library's "may trigger" since I chose not to draw 2 extra cards, therefore, I am not required to meet the effect of that trigger.), then the regular draw is added to the stack. The stack resolves: I draw my regular card, Island Sanctuary is triggered twice, Sylvan Library is not triggered (since I did not draw the 2 extra cards), and I'm happy with a Moat-like effect until the beginning of my next turn. I think I understand everything you said, gzeiger, but I'm not sure you understood that I was declining to draw any cards from Sylvan Library. By me not drawing any cards from Sylvan Library, the negative triggered effect is not triggered, therefore, I can keep my regular draw without paying the 4 life. Am I abiding by the rules here? I think so... but if not, please continue trying to convince me otherwise. I appreciate your knowledge of the rules and your help, gzeiger. Thanks! Talk to ya soon... __________________
"Set the demons free and watch 'em fly!" -Gene Simmons, KISS
|
Dotzcom13
Member
|
posted February 26, 2002 06:53 PM
can I deed an iridescent angel? the deeds ability is colorless.
|
gzeiger
Member
|
posted February 26, 2002 07:17 PM
You have a point, Twig. That sounds right.Pernicious Deed's ability is not colorless, it is green and black like the permanent that generated it. However, it still works. Protection from a color grants four protections:
1) Can't be blocked by a creature of that color.
2) Can't be targeted by a spell or ability of that color.
3) Can't be enchanted by an enchantment of that color (an enchantment will be destroyed if the permanent it enchants gains protection from a characteristic of the enchantment, usually color)
4) All damage dealt to it by a source of the protected color is reduced to zero. Deed doesn't try to do any of those things, so its effect, like Wrath of God's or Mutilate's, is not stopped by protection abilities.
|
gzeiger
Member
|
posted February 26, 2002 07:26 PM
Unfortunately, the "if you do" phrase applies any time you opt to use the Sylvan's ability, even if the actual card drawing is replaced by a different event.
quote:
Comp Rules 419.5. (edited for relevance) If an event is prevented or replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the player simply ignores the impossible instruction. Some abilities read, "Whenever [X], you may [Y]. If you do, [Z]." The "if you do" clause refers to doing any part of the event Y. If Y is replaced entirely or in part by a different event, the "if you do" clause refers to the event that replaced Y.
Since you used the Library to generate a draw to feed the Sanctuary, you are still considered to have chosen "yes" for purposes of the rest of the Library's ability.You almost had me there, though. Bring more good questions __________________
DCI certified Level 1 judge
gzeiger@hotmail.com
|
Titan33
Member
|
posted February 26, 2002 08:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dotzcom13:
can I deed an iridescent angel? the deeds ability is colorless.
the deedds ability is not colorless it just dosent target anything that is why it is possible to destroy an irridecent angel with pernicious deed. however if you use a non-targeting damage spell(ie pyroclasm or breath of darigazz) it deals no damage to her because protection also prevents damage from a source that declares no targets.
|
Twig
Member
|
posted February 26, 2002 08:26 PM
Wow, those rules are definitely challenging to follow. I'm going to study 419.5 until I can make sense of it. Again, I appreciate your willingness, gzeiger, to constructively argue the rules of magic. You've got one extremely large advantage over me... you seem to have a very strong base in the technical rulings of Magic. I have never read them... I just try to apply what I've learned over the past several years of casual play in a "common sense" sort-of way. I will, however, study the rules you've posted so that I may understand why that wonderful combo doesn't work. Darn the rules anyway, I sooooo much wanted to be able to use this much cheaper ($$$) version of Moat Thanks again, gzeiger! __________________
"Set the demons free and watch 'em fly!" -Gene Simmons, KISS
|
Twig
Member
|
posted February 26, 2002 08:38 PM
Alright, I think I get it now. I just called upon my long-time burried Algebra skills to figure out 419.5. Since the Island Sanctuary's trigger used the Sylvan Library trigger -even though I didn't actually draw the cards for Sylvan Library- the action of triggering Island Sanctuary replaced the regular card drawing trigger of Sylvan Library in the equation, thus the "if you do" trigger of the Sylvan Library was met and replaced by the Island Sanctuary trigger. Therefore, I must pay 4 life to keep a card. ERRRRR! Not the desired effect Oh well, we all have to play by the rules, I guess! Thanks again... I will probably return later with some more inquisitive questions (or maybe some stupid ones ) __________________
"Set the demons free and watch 'em fly!" -Gene Simmons, KISS
|
gzeiger
Member
|
posted February 26, 2002 09:18 PM
Reading the entire rulebook is certainly a challenging endeavor. It's over a hundred pages, so I wouldn't reccommend it as casual reading I was ambitious about becoming a judge at one point, though, and I read the darn thing through twice.One thing you can do is use an effect like Abundance or Pursuit of Knowledge to replace the remaining draw. Then the Library will ask you to choose two cards in your hand that you drew, but will find that you didn't draw any cards. This allows you to get cards in your hand without messing up your Island Sanctuary. In tournament play, of course, Sylvan/Abundance should make you win anyway, but in a multiplayer environment you'll definitely want that sanctuary too.
|
Tha Gunslinga
Moderator
|
posted February 27, 2002 08:51 AM
If I have a Portcullis in play (Continuous Artifact that basically locks the number of creatures in play at 2) and I Twiddle the Portcullis and tap it, does its effect turn off?
I'm pretty sure that continuous artifacts turn off when tapped, but Wizards changed a lot of rules, and I wasn't sure if this one's still around.
|
gzeiger
Member
|
posted February 27, 2002 12:02 PM
That rule is one that changed. Continuous artifacts do function when tapped. Seven specific cards received errata so that they work the same as you remember, but cards printed after the rules change don't turn off. The older cards have errata that reads "if this is untapped, then...." The cards are:
Howling Mine
Storage Matrix
Winter Orb
Static Orb
Urza's Contact Lenses (from Unglued )
Voodoo Doll
WatchdogThe last two have one ability that turns off and one that doesn't. __________________
DCI certified Level 1 judge
gzeiger@hotmail.com
|
Elvish Pooper
Member
|
posted February 27, 2002 08:55 PM
If you have a Nightscape Familiar out and you tap for 2 blue mana, would you be able to Syncopate a spell for 2?
|
HanSolo6385
Member
|
posted February 27, 2002 09:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Elvish Pooper:
If you have a Nightscape Familiar out and you tap for 2 blue mana, would you be able to Syncopate a spell for 2?
No, X always equals 0; in converted casting cost and in reduced casting costs. You are paying an additional X because you are tapping mana to increase the cost of your opponent's spell. This cost can not be increased or decreased by a spell or ability, as the origin of the casting cost (for Syncopate, it's XU) is converted to just U. X=0 __________________
HÅñ§¤£¤6⅜5
Snow King, Ruler of all Penguins!AIM Handle:SURFNSKI4REAL King Woopywoopy of the Penguin Clan The more you know, the more you know you don't know. - Socrates
|
Redlimit
Member
|
posted February 27, 2002 09:43 PM
Actually, yes it does reduce the total cost of an X spell as well. With a Nightscape Familiar in play, you can tap one mountain and Fireball something for 1 damage.Two of the rulings on Helm of Awakening answer this fully: -You apply the Helm to the total play cost (see Rule K.20). Since the play cost is the total of the mana cost (see Rule K.18) and all costs in the card text, this means you can apply the Helm to things like Fireball's extra targets and to Buyback (see Rule A.9) costs. The cost reduction is not applied separately to each thing, however, it is applied just once to the total cost. For example, a Capsize costs {U}{U}{1} to cast and {3} for Buyback for a total play cost of {U}{U}{4}. One Helm makes the cost {U}{U}{3} and three Helms makes the cost {U}{U}{1}. See how the reduction is applied to the total and not to individual items. [D'Angelo 1998/01/06]
-The generic X cost is still considered generic even if there is a requirement that a specific color be used for it. For example, "only black mana can be spent this way". This distinction is important for effects which reduce the generic portion of a spell's cost. For example, if you had two Helms in play (each reduces the generic costs of all spells by 1), you could cast a Drain Life for just {B} and still do 1 damage. [WotC Rules Team 1997/06/01] [Duelist Magazine #19
| |
Magic Online Trading League Bulletin Board
UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
