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Author	Topic: Need a Ruling?.. Come on in!.. #9-Questions go here
Titan33 Member	posted March 02, 2002 03:26 PM quote: Originally posted by HanSolo6385: [b]creepyalex: You have to allow the proper resolution to occur. If Faceless Butcher resolves, target your creature. In response to targeting your creature, you bounce it back to your hand, Faceless Butcher's ability fizzles, but not the Butcher, so it stays in play. Therefore, the creature you bounced is not removed, but due to the spell you casted it is returned your hand. EDIT-It has come to my attention that there could be a different question your asking then what I interpreted it as. Here's the other scenario: You cast Faceless Butcher from hand and it resolves. Upon resolution you target a creature for removal, and then bounce your Faceless Butcher back to your hand. Since you targeted the creature, if you bounce the Butcher in response to targeting, the Butcher will return to your hand before the other creature becomes removed. Once the removal ability is triggered from the stack, the creature will be removed from game permanently since the Butcher left play before the removal ability resolved. mAc DrE: Just like what I told creepyalex, you have to make the proper stack. The damage taken from City of Brass goes on the stack with any spell you play. Since you tapped your City first then played Shock, the 1 damage to you is put on the stack with the 2 damage dealt to your opponent. Since your opponent chose to respond by tapping a City and an island, his damage from the City will resolve before yours. So even though the Shock is countered, he will be dealt the 1 damage from his City of Brass, he will lose and you will win. The stack does not have to resolve if a player's life total hits 0. Thanks KIP for helping me out!! [/B] this in in response to creepy alex, this whole thing has nothing to do with the stack. as soon as the city of brass is tapped it deals one damage to its controller(because it says whenever it is a triggered ability and automatically resolves) sorry alex you die first and your opponedt does not cast his spell because he won. even if you do not want to look at it this way here is a nother angle: look at how city of brass is typed the stippulaton about tapping come first so you in fact take the damage before your mana is added. i am always glad to help.
HanSolo6385 Member	posted March 02, 2002 04:06 PM Titan33: Your wrong. I state rule 404.2 on Triggered Abilities: 404.2. Triggered abilities aren't played. Instead, a triggered ability automatically "triggers" each time its trigger event occurs. Once an ability has triggered, it goes on the stack the next time a player would receive priority. Also, 404.3 ties into this as well: The ability checks for the stated condition to be true when the trigger event occurs. If it is, the ability triggers and goes on the stack. On resolution, the ability rechecks the condition. City states "Whenever" and qualifies as a triggered ability. The rule specifically states all triggered abilities enter the stack. __________________ HÅñ§¤£¤6⅜5 Snow King, Ruler of all Penguins! AIM Handle:SURFNSKI4REAL King Woopywoopy of the Penguin Clan The more you know, the more you know you don't know. - Socrates Sign your toploaders!! Orders from the Overlord of Squirrels himself!
KIP_NZ Member	posted March 02, 2002 04:09 PM quote: Originally posted by Titan33: this in in response to creepy alex, this whole thing has nothing to do with the stack. as soon as the city of brass is tapped it deals one damage to its controller(because it says whenever it is a triggered ability and automatically resolves) sorry alex you die first and your opponedt does not cast his spell because he won. even if you do not want to look at it this way here is a nother angle: look at how city of brass is typed the stippulaton about tapping come first so you in fact take the damage before your mana is added. i am always glad to help. Triggered Ablities do not Automaticly reslove, they go on the stack same as everything. Triggered abilities aren't played. Instead, a triggered ability automatically "triggers" each time its trigger event occurs. Once an ability has triggered, it goes on the stack the next time a player would receive priority So you could tap it get the mana, Play the spell, it goes on the stack, the stack resolves, he dies, and the effect of you taking a point of damage never gets a chance to resolve. You win! Adrian DCI Level 2 Judge
Trnothr Member	posted March 02, 2002 05:11 PM It's a common mistake to mix City of Brass with painlands. The painlands deal damage right away because it's after the semicolon and part of the mana-ability. __________________ Am I the one you think I am, or just the one you didn't expect?
HanSolo6385 Member	posted March 02, 2002 05:34 PM quote: Originally posted by Trnothr: It's a common mistake to mix City of Brass with painlands. The painlands deal damage right away because it's after the semicolon and part of the mana-ability. The key word though (on City) is "Whenever" which makes it the Triggered Ability. __________________ HÅñ§¤£¤6⅜5 Snow King, Ruler of all Penguins! AIM Handle:SURFNSKI4REAL King Woopywoopy of the Penguin Clan The more you know, the more you know you don't know. - Socrates Sign your toploaders!! Orders from the Overlord of Squirrels himself!
Titan33 Member	posted March 02, 2002 06:30 PM tanks you guys i was just testing you (lol).
HanSolo6385 Member	posted March 02, 2002 06:37 PM quote: Originally posted by Titan33: tanks you guys i was just testing you (lol). Which isn't recommended on this post since people are looking for serious answers. __________________ HÅñ§¤£¤6⅜5 Snow King, Ruler of all Penguins! AIM Handle:SURFNSKI4REAL King Woopywoopy of the Penguin Clan The more you know, the more you know you don't know. - Socrates Sign your toploaders!! Orders from the Overlord of Squirrels himself!
zeramous Member	posted March 03, 2002 09:36 AM I have a mana maze in play, both me and my brother are playing mono-blue, this sounds confusing to both of us, but can we counter each others spells??? A spell has to be successfully cast b4 the mana maze will take effect, since the counter would go on the stack, can we still counter spells?? __________________ cell1527@yahoo.com Vice Admiral Zeramous G.A.B. Emerald Team Aim: Zeramous79 "The specimen seems to be broken."
HanSolo6385 Member	posted March 03, 2002 10:03 AM zeramous: No. A spell does not have to resolve to be played. Mana Maze does not state the spell has to be successfully cast. It only states when a spell is played. Player's can't play spells that share a color with the last spell played this turn. Therefore, this eliminates the use of all counters, as in a Mono-blue deck, the first spell hits the floor. Well...you could counter, but the counter would fizzle due to an illegal action. Playing spells must follow these steps in order to be played: 1)Announcement of spell. This spell goes on the stack until a counter or resolution takes place. 2)Modal spells require announcement. (In this case, not needed) 3)Legal target(s) is chosen 4)Announcement of differential effects. (In this case, not needed) 5)Determine total cost in order to cast. Once all those steps are met, the spell becomes played. __________________ Snow King, Ruler of all Penguins! AIM Handle:SURFNSKI4REAL King Woopywoopy of the Penguin Clan The more you know, the more you know you don't know. - Socrates Sign your toploaders!! Orders from the Overlord of Squirrels himself!
MindRot Member	posted March 03, 2002 02:39 PM Scenario- I have a Goblin Trenches in play, and three lands, one being a Flood Plain. Question- Can I sac the Plain to the Trenches and in response sac the plain to search for a land? __________________ my refs Extreme Permission
KIP_NZ Member	posted March 03, 2002 03:11 PM quote: Originally posted by MindRot: Scenario- I have a Goblin Trenches in play, and three lands, one being a Flood Plain. Question- Can I sac the Plain to the Trenches and in response sac the plain to search for a land? No, Once you Sac the Flood plain to the Flood Plains it is gone, you never get a chance to Sac it again to another effect. See above where Han posts about playing a spell, the all costs section, by sacing it you are paying the cost.
KIP_NZ Member	posted March 03, 2002 03:13 PM quote: Originally posted by Titan33: tanks you guys i was just testing you (lol). This a good point to say, if you are going to correct someone's post on this thread. Post why and from what Rule you are Quoting. At the end of the day, research your reply, I suggest http://www.crystalkeep.com as a great place to start. __________________ Adrian After a bloodly battle I am proud to claim I am now King Woopywoopy of the Penguin Clan, you may all pay homage Trusted Minions: None Due to Demotion Untrusted Minions: Crazybob BlackStorm Scrubby (I cannot belive 3 people wanted this job??) FruitCake
Titan33 Member	posted March 03, 2002 04:14 PM simple question: can i play a ravenous rats if my opponent has no cards in his or her hand. and how do isues like that stand(ie meting the criteria of a card) Thanks for the advice about cyrstal Keep, it is appreciated.
Avatar of Might Member	posted March 03, 2002 04:26 PM Titan33 Yes, you could. I refer you to the relevant ruling on come into play abilities: E.3.Ruling.1 - You can cast a spell that has a 'comes into play' ability even if you know that the ability itself cannot be played. For example, you can cast a Nekrataal when there are no legal creatures in play to target. Simply ignore any 'comes into play' abilities when deciding if you can play a spell. [D'Angelo 1998/02/03] __________________ -We had creative differences: i was creative and he was different -When i say "Jump!", you say "How High?" -If you believe everything you read, better not read. dna@sfsu.edu [Edited 1 times, lastly by Avatar of Might on March 03, 2002]
HanSolo6385 Member	posted March 03, 2002 04:35 PM Avatar of Might: Have others keep in mind that a come into play ability that has no targets before resolution will have to target the played spell if able. Example: Flametongue Kavu must deal 4 damage to itself if there are no other creatures in play before resolution. __________________ Snow King, Ruler of all Penguins! AIM Handle:SURFNSKI4REAL King Woopywoopy of the Penguin Clan The more you know, the more you know you don't know. - Socrates Sign your toploaders!! Orders from the Overlord of Squirrels himself!
trax72 Member	posted March 04, 2002 09:50 AM AoM: That's not exactly the relevant ruling for this situation, the comes into play ability of Ravenous Rats will still have a valid target unless all opponents have Ivory Mask in play. It just won't do anything when it resolves since there's nothing to discard.
gzeiger Member	posted March 04, 2002 02:43 PM quote: Originally posted by HanSolo6385: *Player's can't play spells that share a color with the last spell played this turn.* Well...you could counter, but the counter would fizzle due to an illegal action. That isn't quite right. Mana Maze prohibits you from even playing the spell. It doesn't "fizzle," which means (or meant) that the spell gets countered on resolution. It simply can't be played at all, and if somebody tries it, the counter gets put back into their hand as an illegal play. It doesn't go to the graveyard.
HanSolo6385 Member	posted March 04, 2002 06:43 PM gzeiger: Apologies, you are correct on that. 422.1. If a player realizes that he or she can't legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger as a result of an undone action. If the action was playing a spell, the spell card returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities played while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasn't reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to or from a library or that involved a random choice or random zone change. Sorry about that. __________________ Snow King, Ruler of all Penguins! AIM Handle:SURFNSKI4REAL King Woopywoopy of the Penguin Clan The more you know, the more you know you don't know. - Socrates Sign your toploaders!! Orders from the Overlord of Squirrels himself!
El Wry Member	posted March 06, 2002 05:43 AM The senario: I have Sacred Ground and Nature's Revolt in play, along with copious amounts of land.. The question: What are the limits of this position? I know that if my opponent stone rains my land it returns to play. I know that if my opponent casts Wrath of god or shock, my land returns to play. What if my opponent attacks with creatures large enough to kill my land? If I block and my land dies, does it return to play? It seems to me that the combat situation would resolve by my lands returning to play due to them being put into the graveyard by a ability controlled by my opponent. But im not sure.. Thanks!
*Tedman* Member	posted March 06, 2002 05:47 AM El Wry: let's say that your opponent Shocks one of your lands. It will not come back with Sacred Ground. This is because the Shock didn't cause the land to go to the graveyard...the state-based effect of having lethal damage did, which isn't controlled by anyone. However, anything that directly destroys land will trigger Sacred Ground. Also, combat damage will not return lands either. __________________ MOTL Moderator for: Deck Help/Construction Articles Magic Discussion General Discussion
2pacalypse Member	posted March 06, 2002 06:29 AM El Wry--- that was a great question, it got me thinking but it sounds like the lands can come back but I'm probably wrong. My questions Can a plaquespitter's during your upkeep ability kill untargetable creatures (say blurred mongoose)?? This was discussed but I'm not too clear on it, if I play Vindicate targeting a nimble mongoose, what happens to my vindicate? Other than being laughed at, does it fizzle or do I get another target because I made a mistake? Any rulings on this? One last question, say I play lightning bolt then my opponent plays forbid to counter it and decides to discard 2 cards for the buyback. If I were to cast Fork, can I discard 2 cards to get the FOrk back considering it now has the buyback ability?
trax72 Member	posted March 06, 2002 08:53 AM 2pacalypse: Plaguespitter's ability doesn't target so yes it will deal 1 damage to a Blurred Mongoose and kill it. Playing Vindicate on a Nimble Mongoose by mistake will cause you to reverse this action, see rule 422.1 quoted by HanSolo above. You can cast Fork to make a copy of Forbid, but you can't discard cards to make it have buyback. However, since the original has been played with buyback the copy created by Fork will have this too without needing to discard anything.
da-odd-templar Member	posted March 06, 2002 03:00 PM quote: Originally posted by Tedman: El Wry: let's say that your opponent Shocks one of your lands. It will not come back with Sacred Ground. This is because the Shock didn't cause the land to go to the graveyard...the state-based effect of having lethal damage did, which isn't controlled by anyone. However, anything that directly destroys land will trigger Sacred Ground. Also, combat damage will not return lands either. Hehe, I think it was Sol Malka or somebody that found this out the hard way. He was at an extended Grand Prix, and he brought a Sacred Ground with his deck so that his manlands couldn't die...boy he found out the hard way __________________ Stinky cheese is still cheese. Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died. - Stephen Wright Rice Cube - The next Azn Sensation!
*Tedman* Member	posted March 06, 2002 03:21 PM quote: Originally posted by da-odd-templar: Hehe, I think it was Sol Malka or somebody that found this out the hard way. He was at an extended Grand Prix, and he brought a Sacred Ground with his deck so that his manlands couldn't die...boy he found out the hard way Actually, I think it was Tom Guevin, and it was at Worlds. He was playing a Wild Research Oath deck and he sideboarded in Sacred Ground against Sligh. The Judge ruled against him when he contested it and he got really mad. __________________ MOTL Moderator for: Deck Help/Construction Articles Magic Discussion General Discussion
revenger Member	posted March 06, 2002 06:10 PM ok- I have a skycloud aven in play and my opponent has a Nightwing Glider (2/1 Protection from back) I attack and he blocks with the glider, I put my damage on the stack, killing the glider, then discard a card and return the aven to my hand. This was done many times in the prereleas to and from me. Your thoughts all... __________________ I shape my weapons from the fears of my enemies. G.A.B. Refs "And when Alexander saw the breath of his domain, he wept for there were no more worlds to conquer..."

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